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Linuxgruven, Sair And Employment Practices - updated
from the the-truth-wants-out dept.
"Here are other links to mailing list discussions about those offered positions at Linuxgruven:
- [Email from Ronald Boney and Paul Berlin]
- [Email from jiin@jiin.org]
- [Email from tmservo@pitton.com]"
Sair GNU/Linux provides certification and testing materials for personal or corporate use intended to show proficiency with various GNU/GPL software. Eric S. Raymond, Jon "maddog" Hall, Bruce Perens, Richard Stallman and other luminaries of Free software sit on the board of Sair, which lends an air of credibility that few organizations can boast.
In an economic niche somewhere near that of Sair, Linuxgruven also focuses on GPL software, by providing training courses and materials and certification, but also provides professional services. They currently have offices in eight U.S. cities, and plan on opening an equal number soon, according to their CEO.
I exchanged email and telephone calls with representatives of both Sair GNU/Linux and Linuxgruven yesterday to find out what each had to say about any legal entanglement between the two companies, and about the uncomplimentary descriptions online of Linuxgruven's hiring practices. If you read the links above, you'll find accounts by Linuxgruven course applicants, who claim that they were offered well-paid entry-level jobs -- in advance, prior to taking any course -- in exchange for paying up-front for the training courses offered by Linuxgruven.
Lenny Sawyer, Sair's Vice President of Operations, was the first to respond to my email, but could offer little information. He said "[w]e (Sair Linux and GNU) feel it would be inappropriate for our company to comment publicly on any possible legal proceedings or an investigation by an outside agency. Sair Linux and GNU Certification has stated it will always take the necessary and proper steps to protect its copyrighted training and certification materials, but we can not comment on any possible individual situations."
Shortly after this, I reached by telephone a Linuxgruven employee named Alex White, who told me that I needed to talk to Matt Porter, the company's CEO. Porter, he said, was on another phone call at the time, but would be able to call me back later in the day. I asked whether I could have Porter's email address in addition, but White said that he had been told not to release email addresses.
While he was on the phone, I asked White (in Linuxgruven's St. Louis office) a little bit about Linuxgruven and his experience there. Was he a Linux user? Did he take a Linuxgruven training course? White answered Yes to both of those questions, and described the 4-week training course as "very comprehensive -- about 80 hours of classroom instruction." White, though, said he was unaware of any legal action either active or in the works involving Linuxgruven, and that I'd have to wait to talk with Porter. White also said he'd never heard of anyone being offered a job at Linuxgruven contingent upon pre-payment of course fees.
I asked White if when he had taken the Linuxgruven course he had been asked or required to pay in advance. "I don't recall," he said. When I expressed surprise at not remembering at what point he'd had to hand over the thousands of dollars the four-week course costs, he explained, "I had relatives who paid for it, and they went through that whole [payment] process." He saw the training course as a route to a better job, after a stint in tech support for another company. What is his job at Linuxgruven now? "Basically, I set up interviews," said White.
A few hours later, Porter called me back, and promised an email with some information (it arrived a few minutes later), and provided his cell phone number; we both agreed that I should read his email and then we would talk again.
During a second telephone call, I asked Porter whether anyone was offered employment at Linuxgruven on a quid pro quo basis, as the user-group emails above indicate, and Porter flatly denied that anyone was ever offered a job based on prepayment for Linuxgruven's training course. "That's never been the case," he said. "That's not how we operate."
"There is absolutely no requirement that any job applicant take our training course and, in fact, we have many employees who have passed either our own examination or the Sair examination without ever taking our training course," reads part of his e-mailed response. "If someone wishes to take our training course in order to prepare for either our own examination or the Sair examination, we offer a discount on our course and we offer to employ the person if he or she subsequently passes one of the two examinations. We do not offer employment in return for simply enrolling in the course, and we do not guarantee that anyone who takes the course will pass one of the two examinations."
Porter told me by phone and in his email that he was aware of the Ross Brunson email cited above, but that he knew of no active legal action involving his company and Sair, or anyone else. Rather than the (singular) "ongoing Better Business Bureau investigation" mentioned in that email, Porter said that he is aware of two BBB investigations, one apiece from the St. Louis and Kansas City bureaus. "We are currently working with both Better Business Bureaus to explain the correct nature of our employment practices," according to his email.
But what is the status of Sair's relationship with Linuxgruven, and why the talk of legal action? According to the email linked above, which Porter says he "assumes is genuine," Sair has "suspended operations with [Linuxgruven] due to non-compliance" with Sair's contracts regarding instructor qualifications.
Porter puts it slightly differently, allowing that Sair and Linuxgruven are no longer parters, but according to him this is because the two companies could not agree on terms for contract renewal. He said via email, "We have not received any word from Sair Linux asserting that it believes that we have misappropriated any of its copyrighted materials. Of course, it is not our company's policy or practice to misappropriate anyone's copyrighted materials."
"The whole stuff about Sair confuses me, because we look at that test, and we have complete respect for what Sair and those guys are doing," said Porter. "We have the utmost respect for the Linux community,and we owe a lot to the community." Porter pointed out that his company accepts Sair-certified applicants, and said this was a good indicator of how much respect Linuxgruven holds for the worth of Sair's training, whether or not the two companies are currently working together.
On the telephone, Porter also seemed slightly taken aback by the disappointment and skepticism expressed online by the people behind the links above, saying "We're a legit company ... We have happy customers," pointing to the testimonials and case studies featured on the Linuxgruven web site. Porter, in fact, is chairperson of the St. Louis LUG, and seems genuinely interested in spreading the idea of Open Source software.
With eight offices open at present, and plans to open eight more in the works, there's no doubt that that aggressive hiring practices are the natural result of Linuxgruven's growth. But why do several people claim to have been offered jobs in exchange for paying for the Linuxgruven training course, if that's "never been the case," as Porter says? The answer to that is likely to come out soon.
If courtroom action is initiated, we're sure to hear more about both Sair and Linuxgruven; anyone with experiences of any kind as a Linuxgruven applicant or employee, or with thoughts on the Sair certification, is encouraged to post comments below.
Update: 01/31 02:04 AM by T : Thanks to Matt Porter for this clarification: Alex White, the Linuxgruven employee I spoke to on the phone, has not yet received certification from Linuxgruven, and his current position is one which allows him to work toward that certification. Any implication otherwise was in error.
Crooks! (Score:1)
this seems fair to me (Score:1)
i mean if you take a course to get certified, your probably going to get a job. linuxgruven just wants to make sure that they get an extra advantage when they go scouting. to me the thought of scouting people by training them seems like a very good idea for any firm. how better to get a feel for how good a guy is than to sit and train him for a while.
as they say, they've hired people who werent trained by them before.
.brad
Drink more tea
organicgreenteas.com [organicgreenteas.com]
I've taken the SAIR exams... (Score:4)
I took the SAIR exams at LinuxWorld in San Jose and I'm not impressed. I've also taken the LPI exams, and they are better geared toward real-world job experience. SAIR also partners with Wave to provide training material. That material basically spoon feeds you the answers. After taking the exams my wife and I both looked over the Wave books and just picked out the answers to the questions word for word. I don't consider that very professional.
I'm scheduled for the RHCE exam in two weeks. I wish more people did lab exams....
Odd. (Score:2)
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What's the fuss? (Score:1)
Who could teach the Linuxgruven seminars better than former students (or students of SAIR)?
It's one thing to say that Linuxgruven's seminars suck and aren't worth the money, but that doesn't make it illegal. Neither does offerring the prospect of jobs to seminar attendees.
And what exactly does SAIR have to do with any of this?
Dancin Santa
Re:Crooks! (Score:1)
From the website (Score:2)
here's an idea (Score:1)
But why would THEY make YOU pay for the training? (Score:2)
It's either a scam, or a very poorly executed recruitment drive. Either way, I personally would steer clear.
Want to get a Linux job? The best way is probably to participate in the community as much as possible, then put THAT on a resume... example; "Contributed port X for Linux, fixed bugs Y and Z".
Seems a mite fishy... (Score:5)
The conclusion was that the policy that people were reporting then, which sure sounds like what we're hearing here, seemed pretty fishy.
At the time, I figured that they were a little company that was trying just a little too hard to grow a little too fast; the evidence neither supports:
Perhaps the most cogent comment was thus:
Re:I've taken the SAIR exams... (Score:3)
At first glance, LPI [lpi.org] seems to be a refreshing exception. The exam goals are well-documented, but require some creative intelligence to prepare for. They seem to be in no hurry to jump into the lucrative marketplace with half-baked exams, preferring to proceed carefully and to leverage community involvement. Best of all, they're keeping their commercial sponsers at arm's length.
__________________
I am pretty sure this is against the law (Score:1)
I personally would not have anything to do with someone as slippery as this, if it is really true.
All seems rather fishy to me, someone aughta call the state labor board where they are to have them take a peek at how bidneth is done down there.
Jer,
Re:I've taken the SAIR exams... (Score:2)
Actually, Wave bought Sair about a year ago. But due to some licensing issues, Wave is not able to use the material Sair wrote.
That sounds like the Sair material. I read the Sair material after I took their exams. I wasn't impressed by either. Some of the questions were really dumb, and I couldn't figure out the answers until I read their material. The Wave material (the last version that I saw, at least) targets LPI, Sair, and RHCE, and is much more comprehensive.
Disclosure: I used to help write the training materials for Wave. Now I work for Linuxgruven. My opinions belong to neither.
Past practice (Score:4)
H&R Block offers people who successfully complete their tax course possibility of employment.
What makes Linuxgruven's practices any different?
Re:But why would THEY make YOU pay for the trainin (Score:1)
You shouldn't pay for a job (Score:2)
I would rather work for a company that was interested in me, and willing to train me if I was behind on anything. Come to think of it, I do work for a company like that. They hired me right out of college, and promptly spent several thousand dollars sending me to 3 different training courses.
Whether this is a scam or not, I wouldn't want to work somewhere where the attitude is "how much can we get out of our employees." I would want to, and do, work for a company where the attitude is "how much can we give our employees to make them better, more capable programmers."
wishus
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Sounds familiar (Score:1)
Isn't this weird? (Score:1)
I wrote about this on Kuro5hin a long time ago... (Score:4)
Including a response by the CEO.
Re:45K. I, as 13yr old, can do better as webmaster (Score:1)
I guess it depends where you live as to what is considered "good pay". In and around Kansas City, most IT professionals earn between $45K and $65K per year (putting Linuxgruven at the low end of the scale). I would imagine in a place like silicon valley, those number would be higher. Much higher.
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Commisioned HR (Score:1)
Re:this seems fair to me (Score:1)
im really doubting that head-hunters good enough to come up with a system of filtering based on how quickly people learn in this course would miss qualified applicants who hadnt taken the course. this seems more like a slick way of gathering up and coming talent, not the exclusive way of gathering talent.
as for the irs similarity, im really not seeing it, if this were redhat giving rhce certification to every seceratary/janitor/pizza delivery guy who has worked for them, id see it. this is more like redhat offering jobs to those who get the highest scores on the rhce exams.....
.brad
Drink more tea
organicgreenteas.com [organicgreenteas.com]
Scam (Score:1)
Linuxgruven (Score:2)
Re:From a Linuxgruven employee (Score:2)
look at those consecutive USER #s (Score:3)
I'm a *nix Admin from Saint Louis, and this suspect behavior bothers me!
Fixafone on 16:52 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311271 Info)
jc33 on 16:53 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311254 Info)
jmuse on 16:55 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311256 Info)
aowens on 16:56 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311261 Info)
maestro69 on 16:57 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311265 Info)
JavaJoeLinux on 17:07 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311263 Info)
scheat on 17:08 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311268 Info)
by Matty X on 17:10 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311262 Info)
Re:Linuxgruven (Score:2)
Re:look at those consecutive USER #s (Score:2)
Re:Let's set the record straight. (Score:2)
Maybe LinuxGruven shouldn't offer to hire these people then. If they are dense to computers in general, then why would you want someone like that working for you, even if you could train them... Just because you can pass a test doesn't make you a smart person.
Re:firewalls and VPNs? (Score:2)
Re:Crooks! (Score:3)
In essence, yes. (Actually, if it were "software licensed" I guess it'd probably be more like the BSD license.) The information is here on Larry Ewing's page [tamu.edu] about it...
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"They have strategic air commands, nuclear submarines, and John Wayne. We have this"
45k (Score:2)
Anything too good to be true 99.999% is. (Score:2)
No one can just take a cram course, pass a few tests, and be an instant expert. I've worked with Linux as a hobbyist for just over a year now, and I've run it mostly as my main OS. I started with RH 6.1, which won't impress many here on
But only NOW, after a year of using Linux, configuring it, playing with it, etc, do I even feel I'm ready to ATTEMPT to go after some kind of certification (Sair is probably the route I'll go). Fortunately, my last 2 months working for a major company in Durham, NC has accelerated my Linux education, as I've been able to use it on the job.
I'm FAR from a PC newbie. I've worked as a PC technician for over 8 years now (A+ certified). Linux is very different from the DOS/Doze world, so different that it was very hard even for someone like me in the beginning to grasp it.
Having worked in the tech industry as long as I have, I've come to be able to spot the difference between the people who KNOW what they are doing, and the ones who have paper that says they know it.
Certification training is NOT the be all and end all. It's only value is to validate to others that you are able to pass a certain level of tests of knowledge. It only goes WITH your experience to validate that you truly HAVE those skills. People who are only trained to pass tests are virtually worthless in the tech biz. Even worse, they devalue the certification itself (as the MCSE has become).
Simply put, if you have the ability, get yourself the training. Play with a PC. A PC that will run Linux adequately can be had very cheaply. Find an entry-level job working as a bench technician. You will learn all the fundamentals there.
If you have the talent, you will be better served by doing 6 months of even low level practical work than you ever will get out of years of book and classroom training.
Re:Waitin' for "the man" to give you a break... (Score:2)
Exactly what I've experienced. I'm 100% self taught. My computer expereince dates back to the VIC-20 in 1980. I worked as a PC tech for 6 years before getting the A+ certification, which was done because my employer required it (our techs had to be A+ certified for certain contract customers). I didn't study and got 93% on the core and 90% on the DOS/Windows part...
Now granted, someone can study books, take a training course, and get the 65% required to pass, but who are you going to hire? Someone with the A+ and 8 years experience? Sure I cost a lot more, but a service company that employs paper technicians is NOT going to keep customers happy.
Having worked with networks, Novell, Linux, and `Doze for the last 2 years, I'm now considering going for a network engineer certification. Not for it's own sake, but to VALIDATE my experience.
Re:Linuxgruven (Score:2)
IMO, it sounds to me like Linuxgruven is in the business of taking your $2500, giving you instruction (that Sair seems to be saying isn't up to their standards), then testing you. If you fail, they have your money.
If you succeed, you have a job making more money than you are worth given your experience and knowledge, that is only as secure as long as their quasi-ponsi bubble lasts?
Better to deliver pizzas, get yourself a PC, some books and start playing with it. In months if you have the ability, you will be ready to work as an entry-level tech for someone, where you will get the REAL experience you need to make the certs mean something.
Re:Another happy employee (Score:3)
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Theory (Score:2)
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Re:Another happy employee (Score:2)
Never underestimate the lowball tactics of sleazy sales and marketerdroids. If there IS such a thing as the "Dark Side of the Force" it's marketing...
I too noticed the nearly sequential and recent accounts that seemed soon after this article was posted, flooded the comments.
Getting bad press exposure on
Honestly, I feel these guys deserve it. Their scheme sounds more like it's designed to collect $2500 than to educate or hire anyone.
What service company would have anything to sell that employed only recent inexperienced certified people?
About the only service Linuxgruven could offer would be cannon fodder suitable for the BOFH's Helldesk (ie people he can intimidate and dupe).
Not to say that everyone who they have trained is like that, but most of the people who will fall for this are people who aren't going to make it in this industry.
Re:Generic Testimonial... All I can give (Score:2)
The tech profession is one of the few left in the world where the cream ALWAYS rises to the top.
Simply put, you can get all the certifications in the world, but if you can't fix the PC, or set up the network, or fix the server when it breaks, your job security is nil.
There are LOTS of people who have lately flocked into tech in the last 2-3 years because of the pay. I was working as a technician before the boom began, and now that times are not so great, guess what, I'll still be employed long after the last "paper MCSE" has been let go.
My point being, there is no such thing as a 2-4-6-8 whatever week training course and test that will EVER make you good enough to start from zip and work as an engineer. Unless you were already so gifted that you actually never need the course to begin with.
Training and certifications may get you in the door, but it's what you do after you are in there that will count in the long run. Certification validates experience, but does not substitute for it.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, especially in the tech industry, where your knowledge is tested and pushed every single day.
Re:Generic Testimonial... All I can give (Score:2)
I'm not dissing them for trying. But they are setting themselves up for hard reality if they let any company lead them to believe ANY certification alone +no experience will get you that kind of starting salary.
Re:Linuxgruven (Score:2)
Well, hard work and experience eventually landed me a solid job with one of the top 3 computer companies in the world. And they hired me FOR my uncertified Linux experience, which is growing rapidly now that I actually get to work with it at work.
I agree that the MCSE is not the way to go. It is nice to have, but not really worth the effort. It is best to get all the experience you can with every OS you can though. I work with Novell, Linux, SCO, and `Doze in my current job. Do I make less than I could make if I took another job? Sure, I could get $5-10K more. But I wouldn't get such broad and practical experience that will eventually get me that 5-10K+more in the future.
There is no substitute for experience AND working your way up.
Re:Generic Testimonial... All I can give (Score:2)
Really? What company can pay entry level people with no experience $45,000 and make money? They can't. And I bet they don't. I'd bet that more than 75% never pass the test, and of the remaining 25%, most of them don't make it a year. Unless I miss my guess, Linuxgruven is actually using a horribly DARWINIAN process of getting qualified people, at the expense of horrific turnover. And the kicker is they are getting PAID to train their own people! Guess it's good for the company if they can get away with it, but it's sure not a great way to offer experienced professionals to your clients.
An experienced and certified Linux Engineer will make a LOT more than $45,000.
Re:It is simple. (Score:2)
Cases like that are really the ONLY reason why certifications are useful. Your certification may be one reason why they hire you, but your experience will be what keeps you there and advances your position.
Most companies care more about what you can do than anything else. Having years of experience on your resume will help. Chances are, a company that refuses to hire you for a position you are qualified for, and have experience to prove it, is NOT where you want to work in the first place. You would end up working with a lot of "paper" MCSE's.
That said, I highly recommend to anyone with the experience to make it meaningful go get the certification. I'm working on it myself right now. After 8 years as a tech, I'm certainly ready now to move up to an Engineer position, and have the experience to make the cert mean something when I get it.
Re:Generic Testimonial... All I can give (Score:2)
Other experience does count in some ways. PC and network fundamentals for example. But even that won't make you a Linux engineer after a cram class and some tests.
"Also, victory by attrition wasn't a "DARWINIAN PROCESS"....get real!"
It isn't? Sure seems like it to me. Seems to me like throwing people in there to either learn at an impossible rate or fail... Acquiring employees in a Darwinian way such as what Linuxgruven is doing is a very ineffieicnt and cruel way to do it. But it's cheap.
This makes me think of 9 things. (Score:3)
I've seen this befour. It was a Java shop they said to me. we will hire you if you take this coarse. Then we will consult you out. After a year we will pay you back. And then I was also offered that If I work a year for nothing they will invest money in me to go to classes. Lesson 2: There is no free ride.
The only job that would pay for me to go to school from day one asked that I wear a tie 4 days a week. Lesson 3: They scratch your back. You wash their car.
Now I'm very big. I'm a big important man. and the only thing thats different is underneath my hat. ( TMBG ). Well actually. I'm coming up on 7 years programming and 6 years using Linux. and 2 years working only on linux. ( no MS at my house ). I can go into any place and pimp all kinda skillz. Lesson 4: Expect to pay your dues befour you just go out and get a great job.
But I know some AS400 people that have thought about linuxgruven. I thought linuxgruven was being nice when they said they would hire her if she passed a exam. Actually I told her to get the RedHat Exam book and cram till i found out how much that was. Lesson 5: Sucks to be deprecated.
If I was linuxgruven I would expect a bunch of Slashdot Zealot types banging down my door expecting High paying jobs... It does not suprize me that Linuxgruven wants only LCA's. Lord knows I would not send some of the Linux guys I've met to a customer site with out something real under their belt. Also. I hired a "Linux Guru"-"All About Open Source"-"New Techno Rocker"-"Slashdot Flamer" and the joker could not show up for work till after noon. I'm damn glad that the company did not send him off to be trained in something when he first started only to find out that he can't show up for work. On another level I've been in Sun Classes where 35 year old guys skip the first 2 days because they are great programmers only to not be able to do the class work on the last day. Expecting a company to go out and spend money on every Knuckle head that can install apache on redhat in hopes they are not full of Cr@p when you send them to a customer site or training class makes no sense. Lesson 6: No one promised you a Rose garden. All you get is dirt.
I know a techie that earns over 200,000.00 a year. He is not married. Lives alone and is out of town almost 25 days a month. I know guys that work 70+ hours a week for almost nothing at a
Here's something for you dorm monkeys to go out and put in your pipes. Go find out how you become a Air Traffic Controler. If memory serves me correct thats over 7 thousand dollars for the training and you don't even get the promise of a job just a certification and a list of airports. And I think starting for that job is 35,000 dollars a year. Lesson 8: Something allways sucks more.
Maybe I'm wasting my breath. Half of you will want to be project management with in 2 years of working anyway. The you will just piss off the other half of us till we quit. Lesson 9: Talent leaves befour dead weight.
Re:Another happy employee (Score:2)
As for being a reader "for a long time," YOUR UID is in the 230000's. I've been reading from shortly before Columbine, that was two years ago. My guess from your ID# is that you've been reading for maybe a year. You're trolling.
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Cult? (Score:2)
I would like to suggest it was neither. I believe that Linuxgruven is a cult along the lines of the Hale-Boppers. I believe that current Linuxgruven employees were the students in it's training program that showed the greatest potentional to open suggestion and thus were brainwashed. The popular press already depicts most Linux users as "geeks", "disenfranchised", or "outsiders" which is the perfect pool of humanity in which to recruit from.
Here is what I propose:
We need a syncronized raid on all 8 of the Linuxgruven offices to free these poor, misguided, brainwashed souls before it is too late. Linuxgruven has already publicly stated it intends to double the number of locations in which they can "recruit" new members.
We must act now before it is too late.
AFAIK, Linuxgruven is not a scam... (Score:3)
As an aside, please see my
Anyway, all I can say (as I said when this came up on Kuro5hin months ago) is: they pay their bills on time. And they're big bills. They're making money somehow other than tuition in order to do that.
FWIW: The sequential ID's bother me alot, and I find it hard to believe that there's no other Linuxgruven employee who has had a
Re:Another happy employee (Score:2)
Sorry, your last 5 posts within the past two weeks are all on this subject.
Also, you have to admit, if they were questionable before, this 'Placing favorable posts' bit is seriously unethical.
Now any real supporters will be automaticlly considered illigit.
Just from THESE ACTIONS ALONE you guys now seem like a scam operation.
Later
ErikZ
Re:From a Linuxgruven employee (Score:2)
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