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The Slashdot Interval

Posted by JonKatz on Mon Oct 18, 1999 09:30 AM
from the Open-Sourcing-Media dept.
Two weeks ago, Jane's Intelligence Review presented media with a new, radically improved information model for the 21st Century. Will they pay attention?

Strange that a British magazine for spooks and a techno-geek culture website would combine to provide a brief, tantalizing and significant look at the shape media might take in the 21st Century.

Two weeks ago, Jane's Intelligence Review posted a draft of a cyber-terrorism article on Slashdot, and asked for feedback. As anyone who has ever written for this site could predict, they got plenty, much of it merciless.

But Jane's didn't respond as media historically have - by publishing the piece anyway, or spouting defensive declarations about how great it was, or simply ignoring what it was hearing.

Instead, Jane's decided it couldn't afford to be wrong on a subject like this, acknowledged the value of much of the criticism, scrapped the piece and started over, even offering to pay critics whose comments ultimately get included in the article.

Bravely -- by contemporary media standards -- Jane's not only embraced interactivity but took it many steps farther than almost any serious and influential publication ever has. This is the antithesis of the way conventional American journalism works. It's hard to even imagine a Washington reporter putting a story up on an editorial website and asking for help before he or she publishes it.

The Jane's/Slashdot experience was ground-breaking, a precedent for an evolving model of digitally-influenced journalism, a step into the interval (an interval is defined in my dictionary as a break, gap, or opening, an interspace) that will transform journalistic institutions, whether they know it or not, like it or not. So far, their answer has been a resounding "no" on both counts.

The traditional model of information distribution has been closed, secretive and non-interactive. Publishers sign confidential contracts with writers. The process of researching and writing books is hidden. Newspapers, newsmagazines, publishers and TV stations make editorial decisions and preparations behind closed doors. Reporters simply prepare their work, then release it to the public. Criticisms, feedback, suggestions can all be heeded or not. The result is a widening chasm between the creators of information and its consumers.

The current hallmark of information industries is a pervasive kind of bewilderment: what do people want? What will they buy? Why can't we pick and choose for them any more?

Since media won't open up their processes to the public, their writers and reporters benefit only from the handful of people they've spoken to, the relatively narrow spectrum of information they've been able to access in the reporting and research process. Jane's and Slashdot have just re-written the rules in ways that have implications for all kinds of journalists, in new and old media.

Jane's decided to correct mistakes and gather all possible information before, not after, the piece was published - the complete reverse of the way mainstream media have worked for decades, and a fundamental reason they've become so arrogant, disconnected and mistrusted.

The Slashdot Interval is not a threat. It offers hope and shows the way. It doesn't undermine the way media work, it moves it forward. Journalists editors producers have a seminal opportunity: they ought to seize on it, experiment with it, expand its applications.

Fear of real interactivity has been publishing and journalism's biggest problems in confronting the shift from top-down information models to the many-to-many forms evolving on and driven by the Net and the Web.

But the Web is a godsend for reporters and publications that value truth and reason over dogma and control.There's no reason that The Washington Post, Newsweek, The New York Times or CBS News couldn't use the Web to test the value, accuracy and clarity of their material. A reporter covering the Pentagon could hear from scores of people working there before writing about Defense Department morale or spending programs. Medical writers could seek help from geneticists, phycisists and bioethicists before they write gee-whiz stories about new fertility drugs. Technology reporters could evaluate new software and hardware before they write gee-whiz stories about them.

Think how many errors could be prevented, bugs eliminated, consumers saved, distortions altered, or useless or ill-informed information published, if this became a media model.

Jane's wasn't forced to change its story as a result of the Slashdot input. A visionary named Johan J. Ingles-le Nobel, their deputy editor, saw interactivity as an opportunity, not an intrusion.

It was a demonstration of what can happen when the ethos behind the online open source movement fuses with a rare open source journalistic instinct. "When you're confronted with a prospective article about cyberterrorism, as a journalist you know this is a massive emerging topic and that it will make a great story," Ingles-le Nobel wrote on Slashdot after his request for help. "After all, you've got to be both blind and deaf to have missed the unprecedented emergence of this thing known as the Internet, and that the day will come when, like anything else, it comes to be seen as a tool in the armoury of those that seek to harm and terrorise. Yet the very nature and vocabulary of the subject precludes a thorough understanding unless you're a programmer in the first place."

The Jane's editor was delighted that Slashdot readers - who include some of the most knowledgeable hackers, geeks and nerds on the Internet -- offered help. He got more than 250 posted comments and 35 e-mails from psychologists and network analysts, and many of the responses, he said, were insightful and knowledgable.

This is a common online experience. Journalists and others may be put off by the flaming and hostility of public threads and posting areas, but e-mail tends to be radically different: thoughtful, useful and intelligent.

Ingles-le Nobel said he decided to scrap the original piece. Instead, "I'm going to cull your comments together and make a better, sharper feature out of it."

This ought to be standard procedure, not a bold move. But in the age of anonymous sources, little or no accountability and almost manic competitiveness, it's nearly unprecedented. Magazines and publishers (newspapers, too, if they're still around) can open up their editorial agendas, perhaps posting lists of stories and topics underway. They can solicit opinions and ideas from a much greater range of sources than the pundits, academics, ideologues and lobbyists who dominate media.

Slashdot, for example, sees all its readers as potential contributors and critics, radically broadening its corps of information suppliers. Writers publish their work in conjunction with criticism and response.

Deja.com also sees users as a virtual army of consumer reporters. Amazon.com has always made it a point to highlight readers' reviews as well as published critics'. Consumer critics don't have to be paid professionals; purchasers and users of products would be highly credible.

In my own case, without quite recognizing it, I used some techniques of the Slashdot Interval in a book about to be published, called "Geeks." Several years ago, I posted the original thesis of the idea on Hotwired, the website of Wired Magazine's digital empire, where I was a columnist at the time. I got an enormous amount of feedback, thousands of responses.

I took this process farther when I began writing on Slashdot, putting my Geek-focused ideas out in the open for consideration and feedback. The responses made me re-think some of my conclusions. This process works almost continuously on online writers, as the feedback, criticism and additional information constantly influences writing on given subjects.

I got to make many of my inevitable mistakes during the pre-publication process; I even found the two geeks who became the primary subjects of the book online. Before I'd written a word, I'd had the chance to talk to hundreds of geeks. My stereotypes, misconceptions and inaccuracies were challenged when they should have been - before, not after, they were published.

This - not technological skill or programming know-how -- makes writers and writing better, more informed, more credible. It doesn't take power away from the writer - I still get to write what I want - but it unmasks the conceit that the writer is unreachable, all-knowing, or beyond assistance.

The Slashdot Interval may not prove relevant for every story in every publication. On fast-breaking stories, for example, there really isn't time. With simple announcements, there isn't a need. But Jane's recognized the limitations of reporting a sensitive, complicated story and used the Internet to get the best help available. At some point, the writer/journalist/producer/author has to pull back, stop gathering and sorting information, and take responsibility for his or her story. All publishing can't always be communal.

Routine announcements of fact or incidents could be presented in the traditional way. But stories about science, politics, law, medicine or other specialties could be tested in advance with knowledgeable constituencies to ensure that they're as accurate as possible, knowing and well-informed.

This idea sounds nightmarish to most journalists; it means the sharing of responsibility and the lost of total control over content - something every journalism school in America teaches as a sacred tenet. But it was Jane's that was practicing the best kind of journalism, by experimenting with journalism that is interactive, opened up to the public, prepared to listen.

With any luck, the Slashdot Interval will become an especially infectious meme. Perhaps Twenty-first Century media have just been Open Sourced.

So much the better.

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  • by Zachary Kessin (1372) <zkessin@gmail.com> on Monday October 18 1999, @04:55AM (#1605183) Homepage Journal
    Just for the record Science Jounals have worked like this for a long time. if you Send something for example to the New England Journal Of Medicine (Or any other major journal) they will ask a number of other people to read you piece and give them a review of it. It is a good way to keep the quality up.
  • I agree that it is good that we finally have the media taking cues from those who know best about a given area. Doctors should be the ones reporting on Health issues, and programmers should be reporting on the kinds of issues Jane's is writing about.

    However, I'm not confident that we can consider this single article to be the sign that things are changing on a grand scale. Even a handful of magazines doing something like this wouldn't constitute a big shift in the paradigm. Mainstream media still has a stangle hold on the information the average person receives. Let's not get too congratulatory yet.

    All in all, I think that this is a great start. It could become a template for other such atricles. I definately think it's the best way to report on such issues. We just have a long way to go before we see this happening frequently.

  • Commentary is an essential part of journalism. Jon is someone who repackages and reinterprets events into a coherent whole. It's important to have someone connecting ideas from different stories. People who post comments do it as well.

    It is the process of interpretation that meakes sense out of random news events.
  • SOP
    This ought to be standard procedure, not a bold move
    This makes a couple of (IMO) invalid assumptions:
    1. News is intended to inform. It isn't; it's intended to get advertising. In the case of magazines such as Jane's, the best way of doing this is to have the best, most-informed articles. This is demonstrably not the case for newspapers, and don't get me started about TV news. In these media, you want something that's simplistic and won't offend anyone. Facts are used only as a last resort.
    2. Another assumption is that everyone's thought of it and discarded it. Now that /. is a [pseudo-]respectable news source, I suspect we'll begin to see more of it. At first from people trying to cash in on the bandwagon (if you'll pardon my mixing a metaphor of a different colour), but eventually any article with aspirations to factuality will use an online community for research.
    Snide Katz-bashing
    I took this process farther when I began writing on Slashdot
    Was this before or after you invented the internet?
  • Courtesy of jwz's dadadodo [jwz.org] program:

    Two weeks ago, Jane's editor decided to be both counts. Yet the criticism ethos behind the feedback: suggestions can all possible, information and Slashdot, interval in my Geek culture website would combine to be standard procedure, not, only embraced interactivity as a Washington reporter putting a massive emerging topic and well as possible, information reporting a tool in the handful of sources than the most journalists. This is hidden; culture website and sign and intelligent. In a media with writers could hear from the traditional model for spooks and a demonstration media model for example, there before not, after (the best help before they ought to correct mistakes and distribution has ever has been closed before he got plenty much of the public their wrote on and vocabulary of this the a rare open for the antithesis of journalism a pervasive kind of people want)?

    Thoughtful, useful and started over dogma and writing mistrusted. It a godsend for his or useless or incidents could predict, they pay can happen when they can all, kinds of people want but in ways that value of fact or ill not only embraced interactivity as a step into the Internet to the original piece anyway, or no reason over even offering to the unprecedented; emergence of the way. Criticisms, feedback. Has ever has ever has. So far, an editorial decisions and shows the Web to most journalists it, forward. But in a media with criticism and old media with criticism, and a techno geek culture website and feedback.

    As the Slashdot putting a widening chasm between the Internet and lobbyists who became a result of journalism, works almost any serious and many steps farther than the Slashdot Interval is a virtual army of people want but Jane's and its applications. The public, threads and hostility of a British magazine for consideration feedback; suggestions can happen when the better. Magazines and gather all its readers as a pervasive virtual demonstration of the Slashdot that value, of the Washington reporter putting a programmer in my conclusions. Jane's Intelligence Review presented media have implications for this, ought to provide harm and others may be communal: Technology reporters.

    With a story journalism that seek to be heeded or spouting her story, in the better. All its story as the piece anyway, and its story; up source journalistic institutions, whether they got to pay buy? The sharing of bewilderment.

    But Jane's an a massive emerging topic and critics attention?

    They pay attention?

    The Jane's Intelligence Review presented media with a bold move.

    So far, their editorial website and additional well as potential contributors and almost manic competitiveness, it's hard to cull the is a better, more than posted a godsend cyber terrorism article.

    Before they know this not a point the pre publication ever has been open up to even offering to ensure that was Jane's Intelligence Review presented media have just been open up their editorial website and hostility of it moves it a prospective article. The Slashdot putting a resounding no on Hotwired, the New radically different; science, politics, law, medicine or not technological skill or simply CBS News couldn't afford to the Slashdot flaming and writing books is a story and old media.

  • Commentary is an essential part of journalism. Jon is someone who repackages and reinterprets events into a coherent whole. It's important to have someone connecting ideas from different stories. People who post comments do it as well.

    I realize that. Katz has done a really good job of this in the past, filling out some of these ideas and showing us what effects they can have and the like. And I LIKE reading those articles.

    I didn't see any of that here. I think everything in here had been mentioned in the past. It was more of a summary than even commentary. And THAT's what made me state that this article was nearly useless. It's summarizing that which we've already read.

    If he wants to make sure we're aware of this idea, then he could have pointed at the previous Slashdot stories, and then added commentary which did expand and interpret them.
    ---
  • Are we really prepared to call what Jane's said "radical"? Yeah, it was pretty damned cool. Yes, it was admirable. But radical? Not really. I think the truth of the matter is that we're just used to crappy journalism. Especially in the technical field where every two-bit writer thinks he's an expert on the computer industry. I applaud what Jane's did, but isn't it time we up'ed out standards?

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • Do we really need to know the timeframe of this twice out of three paragraphs? In topic sentances no less.

    Katz mentioned a few weeks ago about something like collabrative filtering. Perhaps there should be a small quicky 15-30 minute moderation before a story goes public. Take the values of those surveys, compare them to profiles of the people surveyed and be a matchmaker for readers that just want to see what should probally intrest them most.

    In other words -- A true extention of instant feedback from readers before the (sometimes unknowledgable, sometimes really lame) news goes out.

  • by Chalst (57653) on Monday October 18 1999, @05:11AM (#1605193) Homepage Journal
    There are a number of differences between the slashdot model and conventional academic perr review:

    1. Usually a journal article gets passed on to just two or three reviewers, whilst the slashdot model exposes the material to a much wider breadth of criticism.

    2. The journal's reviewers will work on the article for a period of perhaps several months, and alone, whilst the slashdot feedback is conversational and immediate.

    3. Reviewers feedback tends to be collected together on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, whilst in the slahsdot model the criticism is in its turn subject to criticism.

    I think we will see big changes in the way academic feedback occurs in the next decades. It is already happening in computer science and mathematics: ideas at an early stage are disseminated in academic mailing lists, getting a quite different kind of feedback before being submitted to classical journal review. Also the era of the preprint has already revolutionised many subjects.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    I don't know, but I have this sinking feeling that pretty soon, we'll only hear news that WE want to hear. If jounalists are willing to trash stories that certain groups of people get to decide the fate of, wouldn't that constitute a form of censorship? Yeah, I wouldn't mind not having to deal w/ the issue of falling milk prices and its effects on farmers, but it would be wrong not to report it.
  • The amount of news stories constently being pumped out of traditional news sources has been increasing at an exponential rate. I honestly don't see how the web even as vast and expansive as it is, would have the time to precritic every story. Seriously, imagine if slashdot was asked to examine just .1% of all tech articles that are released. We would be swamped and noone would have any time to do otherwise. Every doctor would be spending vast amounts of time helping medical stories, as well as every lawyer trying to make sure we truly understand each and every legal decision. I'm sure there is a happy medium, and any reporter to specializes in a topic should be expected to atleast observe the general web.
  • While I don't think anyone will doubt that the /. effect (I can't bring myself to call it the "Slashdot Interval") on the Jane's article will probably be very beneficial (we haven't seen the final article, yet!), I don't know that this kind of open, public peer review would be as beneficial in every situation.

    For example, Katz suggests posting stories online for fact checking and feedback of people involved in the topics. That's fine for topics involving verifiable factual issues, or highly technical discussion within a community like /., where the self-selection makes it difficult to "pretend" like you know what you're talking about due to the large amount of peer-review.

    But, as Katz suggests, an article on the Pentagon or defense department would probably NOT see as much benefit. You'll see a much greater attempt to ballot-stuff if they're looking for employees to comment, or trying to get a general sense of what's going on. These type of discussions can only be skewed by allowing a self-selecting group to have a significant amount of input.

    Granted, that's not to say this is inherently a bad idea -- after all, our own governmental elections are self-selecting, and we're very used to seeing the results skewed in favor of whatever self-selecting group "gets out the vote", since only 50% of the public (at most) votes in any given election.

    But journalism isn't supposed to be a democracy, where whoever votes early and often gets to influence the final outcome of the story. I'd hate to see the next Watergate overlooked because the CREEP managed to get enough people to post misleading comments and "facts" that are unverifiable until the whole story comes out a decade or three later.

    I'm also concerened about the potential INCREASE in the number of errors that would be propogated through this method. If it was standard practice to post stories with the expectation that mistakes would be corrected later, we'd have serious trouble trying to establish a clear historical record of facts. Most drafts are lost to history for good reason -- they're wrong, poorly edited, and in general unsuitable for public view. This method would make drafts enter the electronic archives of the world with an alarming frequency, and it would be up to the researcher or reader to determine after the fact if the story was later "updated" with correct information. Remember this is a decentralized system of information, so having it updated on CNN.com doesn't mean the cached copy of the "wrong" version isn't going to wind up somewhere it shouldn't be.
  • If Katz were to take his own advice and ask people about the things he writes about, maybe he wouldn't get flamed so "mercilessly" all the time.
  • You've become too cynical

    1. News is intended to inform. It isn't; it's intended to get advertising.

    I guess living in a world where media conglomerates have squeezed as much money per eyeball as they can manage, you could have this opinion. You've put the cart before the horse. However "news" is still meant to inform, it's the delivery service that has become tainted, the medium controlled by the media masters. Thus the utitily of the process Katz talks about in his article.

    Katz puts his ass on the line with every article, he knows what it is to get flamed. He just happens to believe that flames makes better steel, which is basically the whole idea.
  • All this bushwah about it...and no link to the revised article? I went over to Jane's, and all I see, in the free section, is still the 9/21 piece.

    mark, at work, without hours to search
  • by drox (18559) on Monday October 18 1999, @05:20AM (#1605201)
    ...Science Jounals have worked like this for a long time.

    Well, sort of. Peer review is exactly that. Review of ones ideas by (presumably) one's peers. Other recognized experts. I don't know 'bout the rest of you, but I've never been asked to peer-review anything. I'm no expert (probably), my expertise goes unrecognized (definitely), or both.

    Slashdot and other wide-open interactive media don't depend solely on recognized experts. Anyone who feels like it can rant on and on. Non-experts, experts who haven't been recognized as such, and just plain hotheads with nothing relevant to say can all get an audience.

    Some them deserve to be heard. Non-experts frequently have valid concerns that need to be addressed. Even when they don't, forums like this one allow the real experts to correct the mistakes and address the concerns of the misinformed. What peer-reviewed academic journal allows for that? As for the hotheads, they can get moderated into near-invisibility without being deprived of their right to express themselves. What could be better?

  • >Jane's decided to correct mistakes and gather
    >all possible information before, not after, the
    >piece was published.

    Wasn't the article "published" the moment it appeared online?

    So, Jane's have realised that online documents can be modified (or completely rewritten) more easily than paper ones can. That's great, but it's not really that novel, is it?
  • "news" is still meant to inform, it's the delivery service that has become tainted
    I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you're saying that 'news' is some ephemeral entity that exists separately from the media, then I disagree. The medium may not be the message, but it's definitely a part of the message.
    If the medium is controlled by the 'media masters' it doesn't matter a damn what research process is used; anything contraversial or possibly offensive will be excised before transmission/publication.
  • This "slashdot interval" you're talking about isn't new. Infact it's quite old. In the technical field the way engineers, programmers, even guru hackers like Alan Cox judge their work is through thorough evaluation by their peers. This is how we rapidly identify faults and design flaws, and provide quick fixes. It is called the "scientific method". The pattern is roughly as follows - hypothesis (idea!), research (will that work?), design (let's see if it works), release (do you think it works?), feedback. Repeat the last two until you have something that works to the satisfaction of the majority.

    No doubt this is an alien concept to modern media - they're used to being the purveyors of truth. "I'm right because I'm the media" they chant. And they feel a moral imperative to spread their view of the world, because that's the "right" one. Suprise suprise, modern media meets scientific method.

    It ain't new, but it's still revolutionary.

    --

  • He does. That's why he writes on /. so often. Katz sees the Slasdot crowd as a big field to bounce ideas off of. Do you have any idea how much this guy gets flamed? Another poster here said "Katz knows that the flames make better steel." He will write on Slasdot, take in the responses, and change/alter/reevaluate what he thinks..it would only waste space if he wrote revised articles here..but trust me...they're all somewhere.

    I wonder if he is writing another book...something compilating everything he has learned from Slashdot and such. If one does happen, I assure you that many of the ideas he presents will be drastically different from what was initially written on /., simply because of the input he recieved.

    Katz is a good guy, he doesn't deserve to get flamed..he puts his "ass on the line" every single time he writes a feature, and he keeps doing it. Katz recognizes what /. is and makes use of it.
    Some of you need to realize that
  • He does. That's why he writes on /. so often. Katz sees the Slasdot crowd as a big field to bounce ideas off of. Do you have any idea how much this guy gets flamed? Another poster here said "Katz knows that the flames make better steel." He will write on Slasdot, take in the responses, and change/alter/reevaluate what he thinks..it would only waste space if he wrote revised articles here..but trust me...they're all somewhere.

    I wonder if he is writing another book...something compilating everything he has learned from Slashdot and such. If one does happen, I assure you that many of the ideas he presents will be drastically different from what was initially written on /., simply because of the input he recieved.

    Katz is a good guy, he doesn't deserve to get flamed..he puts his "ass on the line" every single time he writes a feature, and he keeps doing it. Katz recognizes what /. is and makes use of it.
    Some of you need to realize that
  • Given that most newspapers are syndicated columns or recycled content from the big media houses, is it not surprising that some people are dissatisified with the emotional repackaging and are seeking more authorative sources of knowledge? Think about a major event and the chances of the movie/pop star du jour being asked by a news channel for their thoughts. Superlative as they are at faking celluloid repartee, I would hardly expect them to be competent in fields outside their expertise (granted, they may have a wide selection of interests). Let's face it, all the real experts are either doing the gruntwork, whether it is biotech or space-science, or are not photogenic enough to warrent exposure to the masses.

    For example in the current controversy about genetically modified food, I suspect people would think more about the issues if they were exposed to the inner discussions which the scientists conduct (but don't be surprised at the range of opinions!). Unfortunately, as Carl Sagan pointed out in his book, The Demon Haunted World, this requires a fair amount of basic scientific literacy just to understand the topic, much less the argot of that expertise. If your interests in technology stops at the microwave and TV remote, then is it surprising that Atlantis and UFOs are more popular topics than biodiversity or social rationalisation?

    Hopefully the Internet will readdress some of the imbalance, allow the public greater access to the knowledge and expertise tied up in the great libraries and minds of people working in the field. Maybe, just maybe, in a few decades if you're not able to add value to a discussion, then news outlets will be forced to reinvent themselves. Specialist journals such as Jane will probably survive, but the general audience is likely to fragment and seek the direct opinions of football stars or technology experts (until they get so sick of the attention they invent AI secretaries ... Linus' next project?). The advantage of computers acting as the storage medium is that people are free to browse user profiles and judge for themselves the history of postings and evaluate the degree of trust they have in a poster's conversations. This past memory is unique and allows balanced review (especially if you are concerned about stupid remarks being kept for prosperity) and cross-referencing, something which cannot be duplicated in TVs or newspapers. Maybe politicians could learn some lessons from this?

    Oh well, so you too can become an authority on an obscure speciality and get your 15 minutes of fame ... one of these decades.

    LL
  • This "slashdot interval" you're talking about isn't new. Infact it's quite old. In the technical field the way engineers, programmers, even guru hackers like Alan Cox judge their work is through thorough evaluation by their peers. This is how we rapidly identify faults and design flaws, and provide quick fixes. It is called the "scientific method". The pattern is roughly as follows - hypothesis (idea!), research (will that work?), design (let's see if it works), release (do you think it works?), feedback. Repeat the last two until you have something that works to the satisfaction of the majority.

    No doubt this is an alien concept to modern media - they're used to being the purveyors of truth. "I'm right because I'm the media" they chant. And they feel a moral imperative to spread their view of the world, because that's the "right" one. Suprise suprise, modern media meets scientific method.

    It ain't new, but it's still revolutionary.

    --

  • This "slashdot interval" you're talking about isn't new. Infact it's quite old. In the technical field the way engineers, programmers, even guru hackers like Alan Cox judge their work is through thorough evaluation by their peers. This is how we rapidly identify faults and design flaws, and provide quick fixes. It is called the "scientific method". The pattern is roughly as follows - hypothesis (idea!), research (will that work?), design (let's see if it works), release (do you think it works?), feedback. Repeat the last two until you have something that works to the satisfaction of the majority.

    No doubt this is an alien concept to modern media - they're used to being the purveyors of truth. "I'm right because I'm the media" they chant. And they feel a moral imperative to spread their view of the world, because that's the "right" one. Suprise suprise, modern media meets scientific method.

    It ain't new, but it's still revolutionary.

    --

  • Katz has again gone and done the impossible. He has turned a simplistic "Look what Jane's and /. have accomplished together" that should maybe be a couple of paragraphs into a massive article.

    He obviously has missed the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)factor.



  • This is basically the "delphing" he described in The Shockwave Rider IIRC.

    Hmm, time to dive back into my copy and see what else he mapped out that might be nearby.
  • I never thought I'd see the day when the media actually realized that they might not always know what they are talking about in every field they report on. The thought that we may see more and more journalists actually try to get feedback from those that *do* know what they are talking about before they make fools of themselves by printing sensational half-truths gives me goosebumps. I think this "open-source" mentality may prove to change the world in ways many of us never even imagined just a few short years ago. Linus may be joking when he talks about world domination, but when you manage to completely alter the mindset of even the most hardcore "closed source" industries - such as journalism - then haven't you, in effect, conqured the world? Then again, this may just prove to be a one-time thing - there's certainly no indication that anyone else in the media is ready to move in this direction. One can dream though, right? Given the speed with which the open source ideaology is spreading currently, maybe its not too farfetched to think that this may be the way of the future.

    A world in which information is truely free... kind of gives you that warm fuzzy feeling, no?
  • As closed-minded as Cringley's article was on this issue, he did have one good point. By making the original article avalable to /. readers, Jane's was publishing the article. Of course he went on to make the incorrect conclusion that it required the full editorial treatment before /. publication.

    The internet has encouraged a split in publishing (surely there before the internet, but not common). I'll call it "Raw Publishing" and "Editorial Publishing". Editorial publishing is when an article/story/book/whatever has been through all of its research, drafts, editors, etc. before being viewed by the reader. This is what most paper publications do, some online mags (eg. Salon) and what Cringely was saying Jane's should have done.

    Then there's raw publishing. It's still publishing, since you are producing content for strangers to read, but both the publisher and the reader know full well it hasn't gone through all the mechanics of exhaustive fact checking and polishing that editorial publications do. They need some research and polish, to avoid looking like a moron, but not to the same degree as editorial publications.

    This is what Jane's did here; it is what many online magazines do, such as /. [slashdot.org], The Register [theregister.co.uk], and, to an increasing extent, http://www.zdnet.com [zdnet.com] do. All of us (including the Anonymous Cowards) are publishers now. Raw publishing has the advantage of speed over editorial publishing. Many raw publications (such as this one) offer more feedback as well.

    People hold the editorial publications to a higher standard than raw ones, for obvious reasons. Jane's readers hold them to a particularly high standard. By publishing raw, and collecting feedback, Jane's was able to boost the quality of an article in its editorial publication in a very short amount of time. Other publications could learn a powerful lesson from this.

    ----
  • Is it just me, or does this article (by Katz) and the experience of Jane's, show the way journalism ought to be.

    After all, what an unprecedented, radical concept it is to actually research the subject. Such guts and brevor, to verify the sanity of facts with a pool of expertise, rather than basing one's world-view on the opinion of a bias 'expert' interested in putting one's own spin on an issue. Nothin ZD about this.

    As with anything statistical, the truth is in large numbers. And for things geek, there's fewer places geeks are found in number than on /.

    As always, the media is finally getting a firm grip on reality. Better late than never.

    Or an I hoping for too much, and only a small segment of the journalistic dimention has the insight into the fact that they are not themselves experts on their latest spew. Kudos to Jane's in either case. Their respect for their work shows.
  • by JordanH (75307) on Monday October 18 1999, @06:04AM (#1605228) Homepage Journal
    You know, this is as good a place to get this idea out as any.

    There've been a number of times recently when Slashdot articles have been critical of traditional information sources. The one that stands out is The Gartner Group's analysis of Linux.

    These Analysts are listened to by a lot of the Industry. These guys are not audited for accuracy, nor do they have to demonstrate credentials, but they can be tremendously influential. Sometimes, it seems that analysts like Gartner and Giga create the future rather than just predict based on trends.

    The situation could be better. It seems to me that moderated up comments on Slashdot are at least as good as the insight of the Analysts, and are often much better.

    By and large, CIOs are not going to read Slashdot, although perhaps they should. Would it be possible to have a new Slashdot section called "Industry Analysis" (or something). Articles could be posted here which would pose specific Industry Trend types of questions/issues for review and analysis. There could also be a standard review Article posted every month/quarter/year to capture analysis for a recurring report on the upcoming state of the Industry. These "Industry Analysis" articles could become a trusted source for Industry News and Trends.

    It might be a good idea to have an Editorial Board for this that would take the "Industry Analysis" articles and collect them just into the gems (highly moderated comments). The Editorial Board might exercise some discretion on Comments, editing them for brevity, possibly consolidating similar Comments into single sub-sections of the report.

    In each case, the collated sub-sections would have by-lines that give information about the authors. This would be an important function of the Editorial Board. They would gather information about the authors for the final edited version of the reports. This information would be important to identify potential biases of the authors. We don't want some guy working for HP playing up the fact that the next release of HP-UX with UltraECommerce+ will be a world beater, without a by-line that makes it clear that the author might be partisan. I wouldn't exclude articles where bias is a factor. After all, the articles still have to pass through moderation. The best marketing information provides you with a lot of data to work from and it could be included, it just has to be completely clear as to the bias of the author. I would allow Anonymous Coward by-lines or even by-lines by authors who don't want to give information about themselves, but the by-line would state the fact that the author prefers not to disclose information about themselves.

    Perhaps the final product would go through a final Slashdot Community review so as to be a check on the Editorial Board and to allow for the Community to point out potential biases that may have been missed by the editors but should be noted.

    Maybe the Editorial Board is unnecessary, I don't know. Without some editing, I doubt it would ever be taken seriously in the industry. I would like to think that this could be taken seriously and help to create the future the way the Gartner's and Giga's create the future with their predictions.

    These final reports could stand alone as Web-Based documents. An Industry Analysis that is for and by the geek community.

    Hey, the Slashdot Community is increasingly being used for Industry Analysis anyway. There are a lot of Industy Press stories that say "the geeks of on Slashdot are saying...". We might as well publish our own industry analysis that is free of outside editing.

    This whole process could be called Open Analysis, or think up another name...

    I could even see Slashdot getting paid to address specific issues with the Open Analysis process. Maybe Slashdot could distribute some of this to the contributors (as Jane's was going to do), but I'm not opposed to Slashdot benefitting from this. What's good for Slashdot is good for the Slashdot Community.

  • I once had the experience of listening to the radio and hearing about a mid-air collision between a Piper aircraft (a Cherokee, I think) and a "Beechnut" Aerostar. They repeated "Beechnut" over several hourly news updates.

    This struck me as hilarious, and embarrassing. Beechnut makes baby food; Beechcraft once built light airplanes, but they never built Aerostars AFAIK. The Aerostar design was then owned by... Piper!

    After listening to this for a while, I finally phoned the radio station and told them that the Aerostar had been most recently built by Piper. They corrected their copy in the very next hour's coverage. So I made a small difference in the quality of news coverage that day, and perhaps kept some people from getting the impression that baby food was the latest hazard to air travel.

    The Jane's episode is the next level, getting the facts right before going to press. We have all seen just how bad journalism can get, when writers try to inform the public on subjects they understand only too poorly themselves. It's not a moment too soon.
    --
    Deja Moo: The feeling that

  • As was predicted, Katz did indeed psot an article about it.. ;-P

    I think it'd be interesting to have a 'Slashdot Proofs' section, where documents could be uploaded for all the world to tear apart. This would be very, VERy interesting... (Spec if Katz prepublished some of his papers, for all the world to tear to shreds)
  • The Slashdot Interval may not prove relevant for every story in every publication. On fast-breaking stories, for example, there really isn't time.

    Darn tootin'!

    Before I ever discovered Slashdot, I remember I had a timed essay in my Journalism 110 class about how new media will change traditional news values. The Internet won't change news values, I replied, it will destroy them. They will be replaced by reader values. Slashdot is a perfect example of readers being able to customize and interact with their news.


    Unfortunitly, there's no way in heck that the Slashdot model will be the across-the-board solution to the degrading worth of today's journalism. First of all, there's the signal to noise ratio. I, personally, can't stomach those man-on-the-street interviews that TV news tries to pull off whenever something Lewinsky-sized heads their way. Open up the media to the public at large and you'll get 98% fluff.


    Second of all, allowing a select group to preview a story like Jane's did is a violation of my personal ethics. This isn't the case for all journalists, but I was made cynical back in my high school days when our advisor allowed the student body president, who had been caught breaking and entering the school, to read and comment on a story concerning him.


    Imagine if some starry eyed Online Journalist decided to run all his stories past a panel of experts before printing them. What if his story was about congress? Would he let all those dogs tear away at his story before the public was allowed viewing? Prior review is a nasty, nasty thing, and never again will I willfully give up any of my first amendment rights.


    Besides, what's the difference between publishing a flawed story on Slashdot and publishing a flawed story in Jane's? You're still open to libel suits if you make false claims in your Slashdot post and say "dudes, I dunno if this is right or not, what do you think?"


    So, yes, Slashdot is a great model for journalists to consider, but it is not the perfect model by any means. Slashdot is a haven for unobjective journalism. Do you think the New York Times could get away with the (sometimes) unsupported Microsoft bashing that we get away with? =)

  • I have been thinking about how a group of people (such as the SlashDot readership) could collectively write a document which could be considered to be from the group as a whole (this would be useful for sending a single email on behalf of Slashdot rather than bombarding people with hundreds of emails). Having though about it a little I decided that the best model would be if someone wrote a "draft" version, and then other people could "lock" segments of the text for modification (users with higher karma would be able to lock more text for longer) in much the same way that files can be locked in a revision control system such as RCS. Now I know many people think that this would end up in incoherent rubbish, but I am not so sure. I think that where there is a clear unified opinion to be expressed (such as in response to FUD) it could work - and if it doesn't work, it would certainly be a cool experiment. Anyone else think this is a worthwhile idea?

    --

  • Lemme get this straight. Katz's example for the "new, radically improved information model for the 21st Century," is articles which are revised, ripped to shreds and revised some more by slashdot readers? I mean, I love you guys, but the idea that slashdotters decide that which is considered "the truth" is extremely frightening to me. News is not like a computer program. Objective reality is not open source.
  • Although Katz's criticism of the publishing world being somewhat closed-doored and unreceptive to outside opinions when it comes to publishing stories is correct, the Jane's Intelligence Review example is not a viable model for most journalistic reporting. Katz quickly states (somewhere in the last third of his article) that some stories - fast-breaking or announcement - would have difficulty integrating this type of approach into its methods of writing articles, without acknowledging that most journalistic writing out there fits these two descriptions.

    Very few articles (notably review pieces occasionally seen buried in the back of trade publications or newspapers) have both the time and a forum of knowledgable people who can propose critical, unbiased statements about what the author is addressing. In this case - a review of potential 21st Century Information Models - the Internet is a natural place to ask for information. The article is timely (being almost the 21st century) but can lag by a few days, weeks, months as the subject matter is siphoned and fashioned into a good article.

    How can a journalist use this for broader topics? How about the progression of an occupied Kosovo, US Foreign Policy, or the ramifications of reaching 6 billion people in 1999? How objective can the average internet user (or even the savvy ones who are on /.) profess to understand the convoluted nature of gene splicing or cloning? The internet and a general chat community can not provide the critical information such an article would need.

    I also have to take issue with one of Katz's premises in saying this type of journalism is indeed generally viable. "The Web is a godsend for reporters and publications that value truth and reason over dogma and control," doesn't take into account that the journalistic community at least usually understands the difference between fact and opinion (though they don't always acknowledge it). It also doesn't take into accound biases of online communities. Taking /. for this example, asking users here to help outline the merits of deploying a Microsoft solution in an enterprize or, more realistically, to help assess the critical weaknesses of the Linux platform would provide a reporter with the very difficult task of separating wheat from chaff. While every hundreth comment might not be "Linux is invulnerable" or "The anti-MS revolution keeps gaining steam", a reporter saves time and headaches asking knowledgable, reliable resources for their assessments.

    In the case of the Jane article, it sounded like this is exactly what they did. Consult some experts and create an on-line edition and request reviews before putting it to ink. In this case, the editor felt that the reality of the subject was so far removed from the text of the article that it called for a rewrite. Well, guess what? This is called a peer review and is done by most academic publications. Source checking is an important part of journalism, and all but the worst rag publications check most sources and facts before they put it to print or make it clear that the posted/printed article is an opinion. Now, because this usually doesn't mean writing "OPINION" as a nice watermark behind the text, it means that the reader must be critical about what they write. In a peer review for information technology, the internet and /. are appropriate peers. For hardcore science, humanities, political or social events this (meaning both /. and as of yet the internet in general) is not the appropriate venue for soliciting informed opinions.

    Watermarked "OPINION" for your protection

  • Jon,

    The process that you labeled the "Slashdot Interval" is also known as peer-review. It is defines the process of publishing articles in almost all (if not all) scientific journals.

    The interesting problem is: how do we bring the rigor of peer review to main-stream journalism? (BTW, Slashdot is an example of that process in action.)

    latham

  • It often happens that when a new idea arises, it is applied to other fields, sometimes with success. If open source works for some reasons with general applicability, for one possibility chaos theory -- the way order naturally arises in complex systems, then it is entirely possible it will have far reaching effects.

    It's even possible we'll understand older ideas like capitalism better under the new light shed. Given open information about products, consumer peer review will select the best products and companies without excessive top-down control. Sound a little familiar?

    I think we've seen enough to know it's longer lasting than a hula-hoop. Whether it has consequences for decades afterwards like the civil rights movement remains to be seen.

    It could be like the anti-War movement too, a single issue horse. No Microsoft, no impetus for open source. I doubt that personally, free software preceded Microsoft's monopoly by quite a piece. It has too much intrinsic value to be dismissed as purely a reaction against something.
  • It's been a while since I read The Shockwave Rider (great, great, great book!), but from what I can recall, wasn't delphing a multiple choice voting system?

    I think /.ing is similar but not quite the same. But the World vs. Kasparov match, now, that seems like an almost perfect match.

  • It's all very well for authors and editors to consult with a large body of experts using the internet, but that's different from handing the editorial function over to a court of public opinion. For instance, if a magazine or newspaper published its plans for upcoming issues and articles, they could be subjec to lobbying by interest groups in favour of or against the planned topics. In other words, opening up publishing too much risks the loss of political autonomy.

    Schemes like this tend to assume a future in which everything's working as smoothly as it does today; but let's just say the technology to do this had existed in, say Germany in the 1930's. If you were a publisher planning to do an article against anti-semitism, do you think you would get very far if your whole process was "open"?

    To put it another way, do we want the publishers of the world to have their content monitored exclusively by the tiny percentage of relatively well-off people who use computers? Where's the political checks and balances if it is this particular economic group with its particular prejudices and agendas that serves as the filter for the mass-media?

    The ability of authors, editors, and publishers to operate out of the public eye is a key guarantor of their ability to exercise free speech.

    This is not to say that Jane's hasn't stumbled on to something useful; but it's useful in a limited context, not as a complete model for the future of publishing.

  • I agree that Slashdot would be very inappropriate to apply generally. If you're doing a story on someone being a criminal, I don't suggest you solicit public opinions on the subject. :) You might weasel and ask for interesting stories instead, but you're potentially exposing respondents to libel, and the story's subject to defamation. This is best investigated privately until you actually have facts. You can't get a scoop by using public review either, obviously.

    But assuming slashdot-like sites covering diverse subjects were in existence, it might be valuable for a fairly large class of stories. Don't think of it as publishing exactly, but discussion of a first draft outline -- more likely if this had been planned from the start. New ideas will be proposed, misconceptions punctured, hoaxes exposed, logic tightened, all to the good if the reporter is open to criticism and suggestions. The forum provides data, the reporter provides information in the story.

    The data on the wire services are shared pretty well, so it's not inconceivable that this kind of data could be too (it's posted publically, so it kinda has to be.) Product will still be differentiated by the sources that only the reporter has access to, and their insight and writing ability.

    Prior review isn't really censorship here because there is no threat to prevent Jane's from publishing whatever they like, including the original story (which they did.) Newspapers usually call politicians before breaking a negative story on them, right? It's not because they won't print the story if the politician doesn't like it, they want more data, and to ensure they're not making a mistake. Prior review is only a problem if you can't ignore it when you choose to.
  • t isn't anything new, although it doesn't surprise me that Katz thinks he discovered it. Most mainstream
    media types make that mistake about any story they write.


    But why shouldn't Katz, or any other "media type", think they discovered something. They did. The mistake is assuming they discovered it FIRST.

    And given the rush to publish, once they find out something new they often don't have time to discover the alternate literature where the "new" thing is really old news.

    Further, if it's something that isn't common knowlege in their particular literature, importing it is still a useful and valuable act of reportage.

  • Checking the data on an open forum may not become universal, or even common, due to the value of the exclusive report or scoop.

    Exposing the story to public criticism also exposes it to other reporters. The less scrupulous may then take advantage of it, quickly develop a source, and do their own story without either checking it or crediting the consientious reporter who really broke the story.

    Janes has an advantage of being nearly a monopoly on their particular field of reportage. So they have less to risk.

  • It is not _instantly_ recognizable as Markov-chain travesty (which is the process by which this travesty was generated, Markov chaining- I have a twisted little story edited from Markov chained output, called Speak Roughly To Your Evidence [airwindows.com])
    Instead, this Katz travesty requires a moment of actual reading to discover that its incoherency and sloppiness is not Katz's usual sort, but far worse and more random. That's kind of scary :) normal writers can be instantly distinguished from travesty. Katz already shows some behavior that is similar to travesty, for instance the surprising fact that the first and third lines of his story start with the exact same six words and punctuation, and the second line is a sentence fragment.
    What is Katz, really? This travesty and the disturbing realisation that it shares more with the original source than one would expect raises some unusual questions. Katz _is_ a living human being, unless Rob Malda is playing some really, really weird mind game with us- so what is happening with these very Markov-like writing habits? Is this a suggestion that the human thought processes draw more from Markov chaining than we'd like to admit- and that clarity and coherency are derived from a sort of 'overseer' level in the brain that looks at the entire work as a whole, and censors redundancies and incompleted thoughts- a 'censor' level that in Jon Katz is not working effectively?

  • One thing that Katz does not address is that sometimes getting the information out quickly is more important than getting the information precisely right or properly moderated. That, to my mind, has had a huge influence in creating the journalist culture he's complaining about. With so much (presumably sales numbers and so forth) riding on the ability of a story to be novel and sensational, as opposed to precisely accurate, it's no wonder that journalists will tend to shoot first and ask questions later.

    There are times, however, where this approach is perfectly justifiable. I want to know about health issues, flawed or dangerous technology that I might be dealing with, and so forth as soon as possible. If a company is producing a dangerous product, it is much more valuable to me that their product line be painted with a broad brush and either recalled or dealt with quickly than it is for me to hear a few days later that the ABS in my car fails one time in a thousand or that mixing ChemCo. Houshold Products A and B will give me a hideous illness.

    As well, the idea of "investigative reporting" is probably (I've got zero experience here) also something that you can't do by committee, especially if there are powerful people involved. I can't imagine how the discovery of Nixon's abuse of power would have turned out if Nixon himself had got wind it a week in advance, and brought presidential influence to bear on the journalists and the publication itself.

    Peer review is nowhere near a new idea. It may be a novelty in the context of modern journalism, but it is simply not a tool that you can use all of the time. I agree that there is a lot of good to the idea, but the idea just isn't appropriate for urgent situations or for those that demand some degree of caution or secrecy before release, for fear of tainting the product.

    The challenge will be in deciding which is which. Look for a book called "Dead Secret", for an interesting bit of apropos fiction.

    --

  • by Chris Johnson (580) on Monday October 18 1999, @09:27AM (#1605276) Homepage
    The trouble is this: a random selection of people has no particular qualifications for wisdom or knowledge. Unless you are ready to postulate a self-selecting superior race of Slashdot ACs^Hreaders ;) you run into the difficulty that the peers reviewing your idea have no clue about it. Peer review is not a populist thing, but an elitist one- you don't peer review scientific papers by handing them out in the street. In the case of the Jane's piece, there clearly were qualified peers available to review the work. In many other cases there wouldn't be- and Slashdot is not a selective forum, for the most part.
    In fact, the nature of Slashdot is such that it is almost impossible for certain notions, such as unionization, to get reviewed with clarity, because the Slashdot population has self-selected to strongly favor libertarian beliefs, and beyond that to outright Randite views. This slant even manages to strongly color more computer-software-oriented socialist ideas, such as freedom of software being an end in itself and not solely a tool used to maximize profit. As a result, one is almost obligated to say 'OF COURSE open source is about maximizing efficiency and profit and anything else is icing on the cake', and it's equally obligatory for _somebody_ to slam the GPL's more social implications when that is brought into the discussion, as if to say, "You can talk all you want but you HAVE TO also pay credence to the TRUTH!".
    All this merely underlines the point that Slashdot is its own special interest group, with no particular claim on the truth. Considered as a whole, Slashdot may have formidable resources to peer review some things. It may be clueless about other things, or even actively wrong and misguided about still other things, even things that seem to concern it deeply.
    My picture of the average Slashdot viewpoint (not reader, just viewpoint) is of a viewpoint deeply educated in computer technology, naive in sociology, rather well-off and insulated from the harsher edge of modern society, similarly naive in politics and economics, with a strikingly optimistic viewpoint and lots of energy to bring great things to the world, but extremely willing to write off injustices and abuses as acceptable provided the abuser is acting in their own self interest, which is seen as so paramount that it is not ever to be questioned. As a result, the vision of the average Slashdot viewpoint (not reader, viewpoint) is very sharp but very narrow, prone to fixate on small details and fail to acknowledge there is a big picture- capable of spying a dim possibility on the horizon, _pursuing_ it and then actually _reaching_ that possibility where most people would never ever have got that far- and then looking around in complete surprise at the surroundings, having never given a thought to what else was there.
    Thoughts?
  • Mr. Katz suggests making (in effect) 'Net-based, short turnaround peer review a standard way of doing business; journalism for the 21st century.

    I see two potentially serious problems with this (in addition to the obvious problem with not waiting to release "scoops"):

    (1) In no time at all, there would be an unacceptably low ratio of qualified reviewers to material to be reviewed. (For example, Slashdot provides a large and self-moderating community, but could even we review every ZD story for accuracy?)

    (2) Unless posted in some secure area, publishing drafts is still publishing, and could raise additional probability of slander lawsuits. (One would presumably publish early drafts, simultaneously with the usual internal review that checks for this kind of liability.)
  • To suggest that bias should be avoided sounds sensible, but it may be impossible to achieve.

    I could give a very even-handed and thoroughly professional assessment of the pros and cons of Solaris, Linux and Windows in the context of my company's type of application, sticking to facts and without emotive colouring, full of figures and with tight traceability between requirements, performance and conclusions, but how would you judge it for bias? It would be utterly critical of Windows in almost all areas that are relevant to my work (which is *not* office applications), so much so that I expect it would take a very unusual kind of Microsoft devotee to accept my analysis as being unbiased despite all my efforts.

    I think you may be asking for the Holy Grail. When analysis condemns something so strongly, it's quite impossible to call for lack of bias, because bias will always be perceived by the side affected, regardless of safeguards.

    Of course, you could avoid the accusation by accepting only luke-warm, greyish opinion, but where would that get you? I'm afraid this is not as simple an issue as it might at first appear.
  • I have been thinking about how a group of people (such as the SlashDot readership) could collectively write a document which could be considered to be from the group as a whole...

    Slashdot is not monolithic - why should it speak with one voice? We're a diverse bunch, and I really doubt that any one document could be agreed upon by the entire Slashdot readership. Unless maybe it were a self-referential bit of fluff like "We hold these truths to be self-evident - that all Slashdot readers read Slashdot." Even then, there's probably a few troublemakers who'd dissent. "No! I never read Slashdot!"

    I don't want the majority of Slashdot readers, or posters, to collectively author a document on behalf of all Slashdotters. Even if they had really high karma/moderation totals. Because I'm a Slashdotter, and I might disagree! And even if I agreed, there's the principle of the thing. What about the poor Anonymous Coward whose views are not represented in the Slashdot Constitution because the majority voted him/her down?
    • drox wrote:
      • JordanH wrote:
      • Maybe the Editorial Board is unnecessary, I don't know. Without some editing, I doubt it [Slashdot] would ever be taken seriously in the industry.

      Don't we already have an editorial board? I thought they were called moderators.

    Sure, We, the geeks of Slashdot have editors, called moderators, but this may not be the kind of editing required to get these reports taken seriously.

    Let me ask you, should Rob had told Jane's "Sure, we'll ask the Slashdot geeks about cyberterrorism for you, but instead of putting together an article in your book from the responses, just put the URL to our discussion in your book. We have all the editing you need."?

    It wouldn't have flown and frankly, the Jane's article will probably be more accessible to most of the people interested in the subject matter than the Slashdot discussion ever would.

    I liken Open Analysis to Open Source, with Open Analysis the ideas are all there for free on Slashdot, just like with Open Source the source is all out there on ftp servers - for all to read and examine. But, there's a premium service where we edit it and digest it into a form that you'll be more likely to be able to use. This is what the various Linux distribution projects do for Linux, put it into a form that people are more likely to be able to use.

    • Whether Slashdot is taken seriously in "the Industry" will depend largely on whether the ideas and opinions presented on Slashdot are well thought-out and relevant. Not on whether there's an editorial board or peer review.

    Yeah, right... And the best technology is always adopted by the market.

    As I said, CIOs aren't going to read Slashdot, maybe they should. I think they are interested in what we have to say. If we could meet them in the middle a bit, give them our insights in a form more familiar to them, we might be able to help them in their decision making processes that directly affect our lives and society.

    As it stands, most CIOs will stop reading Slashdot immediately after seeing their first "First!" Comment.

    Look, I'm not sold on adding a bunch of infrastructure to try to make Slashdot into a new-media Industry Analyst platform. I don't know about any of this.

    I do know that now, I read more good stuff on Slashdot everyday than I can read in a year of ZDNet publications, or 5 Analysts Whitepapers. If there was some way we could get the Best of Slashdot before a larger audience, we might all benefit.