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Fahrenheit 9/11 Discussion
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Sun Jun 27, 2004 08:24 AM
from the talk-amongst-yourselves dept.
from the talk-amongst-yourselves dept.
xerid writes "I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 last night, and the theatre was packed & sold out for each showing. Today, I read on Michael Moore.com about the movie breaking records. However, what I haven't seen was coverage on Slashdot, about the movie's opening day." I saw the film on friday and was really impressed. But while it speaks much truth, and has many funny parts as well as truly heartbreaking ones, I don't know how many votes it will sway. But since there is very little other news so far today, why not talk amongst yourselves!
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Fahrenheit 9/11 Discussion
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Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's get back to discussing robots and porn tech!
Re:Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:5, Funny)
Now we have two subjects for the flame war! Cool!
Re:BEFORE the flamewar commences... (Score:4, Funny)
missing from the movie is michael moore trying to get john kerry to recruit his kids to join the military and fight in iraq. he did afterall vote to go to iraq didn't he?
Re:BEFORE the flamewar commences... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do any other non-Americans find this as hilarious as I do ?
Re:BEFORE the flamewar commences... (Score:5, Informative)
(http://slashdot.org/)
Ack.
Those guys should have spent some time with real leftwing radicals. I mean, come on guys, there are places on the world, wehere gun control is whole heartedly supported by the conservatives, and they and the socialists keep overall tax burden far above 50% with a straight face. Where unions as you know them are a state guaranteed right and hold 50%-1 vote on every company board.
Where the real lefties are so far removed from reality that you ask yourself what universe they come from. Hey, check out Germany's (really) beloved 'Secretary of State/Foreign affairs Secretary' Joschka Fischer, who started his political career personally knowing qiute a few of the 70's Terrorist luminaries, or our somehwat despised "Environment Minister", who not-so-long-ago used to be menmber of a real orthodox communist group ("orthodox" meaning "unconditionally loyal to Moscow" - we used to joke about those Spartakus guys in university that they would open their umbrella as soon as it started to rain in Moscow)
Oh, and go to France, Britain, Spain, Italy, Greece, you name it - you will find all shades of real socialists and communists there as well.
As for Europe, Mr. Kerry (like Clinton before him) is a moderate conservative, while Mr Bush would probably grouped with the likes of Haider, LePen and Fini as a borderline extreme right-wing populist (though his habit to name fundamentalist christian ayatollahs to top governement posts is a practice not seen anywhere in Europe these days).
Wishful thinking (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php)
Re:Wishful thinking (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:BEFORE the flamewar commences... (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.hiddenglade.com/threesecond/)
But also, everyone should be aware of the page in which Moore responds to the people who claim he twisted facts:
Moore's considerably-less-famous response page. [michaelmoore.com]
Re:BEFORE the flamewar commences... (Score:4, Funny)
(http://www.kingnerd.net/)
He didn't have to tell us. We knew.
Re:BEFORE the flamewar commences... (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/)
I'm Canadian, and having spent a lot of time in the U.S., I knew you were "a bunch of obnoxious idiots" long before I ever heard about Michael Moore. Not all of you are obnoxious idiots, but Bush and Moore are two of the biggest. Moore is quite funny though, and I appreciate humour.
Sadly, you're right (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.stargrunt.ca/ | Last Journal: Tuesday October 08 2002, @05:21PM)
Contrast this with how many of my allegedly university educated (and college educated) friends look at the Americans - often times the reactions are vitriolic, uncharitable, and reflect only a superficial interface with *actual* Americans, as opposed to some sort of caricature seen on TV or presented in Canadian (opinionated, spin-doctoring, discontent-formenting) media.
If they're all so smart and well educated, they should be able to 'walk a mile in the other guys shoes' and should know better than to form opinions of a whole body of people by the outliers. And they should know that it makes little sense to form opinions with little data. But this paucity of data seems to lead to very nasty and very mean-spirited opinions.
Whether we as Canadians should or should not have joined the war in Iraq, whether we should support the war on terror, whether we have serious border issues ourselves with our own intelligence and police agencies reporting fairly significant terrorist planning and fundraising activities within our borders, etc. - all of these things are things that should be calmly discussed and upon which differing points of view can be coped-with. We should still be able to maintain a civil relationships with our US neighbours.
It is no mark of distinction, no badge of honour, no sign of integrity or eductation to blindly bash those you've never met, to categorize them blankly based on a few noisy mouthpieces, nor to show your own small-hearted nature by vilifying people who have (for the most part) very similar aspirations, lives, and motivations...
To my mind, this kind of behaviour (especially given the way we open our arms to people the rest of the world over) is just pathetic. We should have our own opinions, but we shouldn't be obnoxious buttheads when it comes to our neighbours in the south.
Many of my American friends have apologized for the kind of stereo-typical American tourista that you sometimes encounter ("Those are the kind of people that we even wince about... they make us all look bad.") I feel very much that way about Canadians that can't disagree with their American counterparts without resorting to unthoughtful and unflattering epithets, errant classifications, and bilious polemic. This kind of conduct is unjustified and makes me want to disown these boorish clowns... or at least makes me embarassed to admit to being from the same country, which is sad, because I love the place and I took and Oath to defend it... I just wish some of the people would act a bit more like polite, rational adults and less like petulant, self-absorbed, egocentric children....
Re:BEFORE the flamewar commences... (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.hiddenglade.com/threesecond/)
What?!
Look bunky, the title is homage (since in Moore's view the political atmosphere in the United States is approaching that depicted in the book). No matter what Mr. Bradbury says, you can't copyright titles. (I can't believe that man is upset, by the way -- someone must have got to him.) If you could, the available namespace for new creative works would be impossibly cluttered by now. To call naming your movie similarly to another work in order to make a point about similarity ungraciously stealing from another artist is unconscionable.
But I wouldn't be angry at you, except you made that damnable "limousine liberal" crack. If you think it's possible to get rich off of producing documentaries than you are a schmuck, pardon my Yiddish.
Moore's comes from a working class background, a fact that's obvious to anyone whose seen Roger & Me and don't give me that crap about it being full of lies. His father and grandfather worked for General Motors. He had to sell his home to get Roger & Me made. Take a look for yourself. [yahoo.com] It's impossible he got into this business expecting to make boatloads of cash; that he's succeeded at it means he should be lauded, not condemned for the crime of success. If you're a documentary filmmaker who somehow makes money you must have a spark of genius in you, just like Rush Limbaugh must have for proving talk radio to be profitable. (Whether I agree with him is something else -- but Rush did made it work.)
Conservatives should be lauding his success, but instead they try to prevent people from seeing his movie, all because Moore doesn't agree with them.
Re:BEFORE the flamewar commences... (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Thursday November 09 2006, @05:02PM)
Success makes alot of people forget who they are/were and often is the failing point that make people who have achived drop back to were they came from. The problem is that this time around they don't like any of it. They dispise the roots that help image them into a person admired and successfull that even you become a fanboy. The grandparrent poster was correctly portraying moore from the perception of us non-fanboy liberals/?/.
Re:BEFORE the flamewar commences... (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.hiddenglade.com/threesecond/)
Ah, but after Roger & Me, Moore didn't have a lot of success except for the books, until Bowling for Columbine. Canadian Bacon did poorly (I'd say deservedly so), Pets or Meat I've only even seen mentioned in two places (one of which I found today), The Big One just followed Moore's book tour, and T.V. Nation and Awful Truth were not profitable.
And the thing about Bowling for Columbine, arguably Moore's first really big success since Roger & Me: The movie is not anti-gun.
It's anti-NRA, it's anti-Charleton Heston, it's (weirdly) anti-Dick Clark, it's anti-nightly news, it's anti-James Nichols, it's anti-atmosphere of fear.
But it shows that Canada has more guns per capita than the United States, and a much lower gun-related murder rate. If anything, it shows that American paranoia is responsible for that more than guns.
Bowling for Columbine is arguably Moore's most centered work to date. People who complain about it lying miss the entire point -- none of the supposed lies that I've heard dispute the essential core of the movie.
It's true that he probably is a little too active in going after Heston, and Dick Clark, but I understand why he did it.
Even if he was an average poor boy in the beguining doesn't mean he isn't a "limousine liberal" now. As a matter of fact, it apears that he is even less then that and mainly a machine schill for the liberals.
There are machine shills all over the place. The right's outnumber Moore at least ten-to-one; talk radio and Fox News prove that handily. And I don't think he is one, even then. I'd say that shills don't fall on their face, creatively, as often, but instead stick to safe projects.
It would apear that apeasing them is what really counts to moore in this day and age.
Success makes alot of people forget who they are/were and often is the failing point that make people who have achived drop back to were they came from.
Granted. But until someone shows me otherwise, I will continue thinking well of Moore.
(Yes, that's a challenge. Someone out there, show me something damning. I want to know where these rumors come from, if there's anything to them.)
The problem is that this time around they don't like any of it. They dispise the roots that help image them into a person admired and successfull that even you become a fanboy.
Oh my friend, I know I'm a fanboy. Do a Slashdot search connecting "MilenCent" to "Nintendo" and you'll have all the proof you want of that. I don't dress up as Link for Halloween, mind you....*
I am not a Michael Moore fanboy however; a fanboy wouldn't complain about Canadian Bacon, The Big One, or the one-note tone of his books. I do admire Bowling for Columbine, however, and I'm looking forward to Farenheit 9/11. I think the man does good work, and whatever flaws they have are a result of his earnestness more than any calculated shill-factor.
* This comment is part of a blatant bid to get "Michael Moore" connected to "The Legend of Zelda" in Google searches. Rupees! Flint, Michigan! Heart Containers! General Motors! Ganondorf! John Ashcroft!
Bradbury pot to Moore's kettle... (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, I think Ray is aware of this... I Sing The Body Electric was the exact title of a Walt Whitman poem before he appropriated it for his story.
Off the top of my head, Something Wicked This Way Comes is a Shakespeare quote, while The Golden Apples Of The Sun is a Yeats quote.
I'm sure there are others, but that should suffice to show that Bradbury knows damn well that it's permissible to reference another's work in a title.
Re:Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:5, Funny)
(http://operagost.com/ | Last Journal: Monday May 01 2006, @12:08PM)
Re:Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:4, Informative)
NYTimes By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS - Published: May 4, 2004
"WASHINGTON -- U.S. commanders plan to keep U.S. troops at their current levels in Iraq -- about 135,000 -- until the end of 2005, Pentagon officials said Tuesday."
Re:Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Tuesday November 30 2004, @06:34PM)
Re:Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://dailysedative.com/ | Last Journal: Friday December 13 2002, @01:31AM)
This analogy is silly. Let's also say that the thing you're looking for was purpoted to weigh hundreds of tons and need an untold amount of support hardware and shelter in order to exist. Thousands of people would have to have at least have some clue where the thing is; you've had unfettered access to these people for more than a year. And you've had 100,000 people looking for it using spy satellites and the most advanced technology we have for more than a year as well. If the weapons really do exist they must have been hidden so well that they themselves didn't know where it was.
Is there ever going to be a point where you are going to change your mind on this? Say, five years from now, will you still be holding onto this line? You'll still be able to say it then -- the argument would still be exactly the same: Iraq will still be a big country, I'm sure there will be all sorts vague signs you will be able to interpret in just the right way. What's the threshold here?
Re:Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.trellon.com/ | Last Journal: Monday June 04, @07:57PM)
1) To hide, destroy or otherwise make WMDs disappear at the numbers of tonnes claimed by the administration prior to the war would at the least cause an observable environmental impact. This impact could be used to determine the ultimate fate of such weapons, whether or not they were destroyed, so it is a stretch to believe there were any weapons in the first place.
2) Iraq's armies were crippled by the effects of 10 years of sanctions that left the Army without funds to feed it's troops in the field. Iraqi soldiers were stealing food from local populations in places where they were fortunate enough to be near sustinence, and starving in forward desert deployments at the time the US invaded. Don't tell me they could have carried out an offensive, that idea is completely ludicrous.
3) The one place in the world where there is serious Oil expertise is the Middle East. Oil in Texas is a hit or miss proposition, and more wells have been put in and gone dry in a week than have been left there. As far as Hialliburton goes, many of the contracts they received were for delivering food, war materials, and even the mail - perhaps there are other organizations more adept at delivering these things, and other companies should have been part of the bidding process.
M
Re:yeah, I'll bite... (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/)
There's only one global superpower, and we're it.
Max
Re:yeah, I'll bite... (Score:5, Insightful)
It happened to the Greeks, the Romans, to some extend the French, the Spaniards, (heck the Germans too).
I actually read an article a long time ago in "Scientific America" (I think), putting forth the theory that every super power will eventually vanish, due to complacency and self rightousness and exploitation by a few rich people.
Just look around you, you can already see it. Kids are already overweight at age of six, sitting in front of the TV all day. People watch their "games", cheering their heroic soldiers while drinking beer. Education is declining. People watch nothing but so called "reality" shows. Typically both spouses have to work now in order to keep a lifestyle that could be supported by only one income just a decade ago. Politics are reduced cheap TV shows (infotainment). All political discussion has been reduced to "Democratic or Republican". Etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.
(All this is of course not limited to the US, but seen in many western countries)
The US maybe be currently the strongest military power on this planet financed by a $480.000.000.000/Year military budget, at the expense of US citizens (and that is excluding current Afghanistan and Iraq war costs).
Ironically that does not even seem to be enough to control a little arabic country that has been bled out by over 10 years of economic sanctions.
And as violence tends to create more violence, it is not even used to keep the american people safe.
It's all so rediculous, if it wasn't so serious it would be actually funny.
How long are the american people willing to pay for that (at the expense of education, health care, social security, high long term interest rates, etc, etc)? Right now there's some kind of almost blind patriotism that keeps people on the line, but it can't hide the truth forever.
Just look at this number again: $480.000.000.000/Year plus currently $200.000.000.000 for Iraq. Does anybody realize how much money that is? Doesn't anybody else think this money could be better spent then using it to essentially piss of the rest of the population of this planet, and especially Muslims?
In terms of economic output the US is already second in line behind the EU. And BTW George W. was great for the EU, leading to a common mindset to accept less somewhat national independence in order to be able to jointly withstand US interests (at least this is how it is perceived by many).
Re:Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:5, Insightful)
This place is and always has been about "News for Nerds, Stuff that matters to CmdrTaco". He's always posted whatever's of interest to him. I see no reason this should be different.
Re:Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.myspace.com/chrisstovall)
Certainly, the liberals out there would never subject us to any kind of excessive government control if they had a chance...oh, wait again.
*sigh*
That article basically says "Bush hampers stem cell research" (which is stupid, IMHO, but hey...he's a religious guy, and I'm not), and "Russian scientists were hampered by politics". Hardly a decent argument that GWB has created a tyranny in the US.
Re:Let the flamewar....COMMENCE! (Score:4, Informative)
(http://www.hiddenglade.com/threesecond/)
Yes. [furnituref...people.com]
Personally, I thought differently... (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Wednesday October 27 2004, @10:08PM)
Now, if you consider every single news flash regarding, oh say, SCO, more important than a movie that I believe will make a fundamental impact on the future of how politics are played out in America, the fine, avoid this thread. But personally, I think nerds should be just as educated about how their country is run politically as well as technologically.
And besides, one of the greatest lessons to be learned from this movie (though I would have thought it would have been learned much earlier than this) is as follows: Never try and forcefully hide information from the public. The more you try and supress it, the more intreaguing it becomes and the more demand there is for it. If you really do want to hide something, try to be as discrete about it as possible.
But as soon as Disney tried to put the movie away because of benefits they've received from the Bush family, the press pounced, and Moore had a documentary that was "scandalous", and just like Clinton has proved himself, people love a scandal (and I'm sure
Re:Personally, I thought differently... (Score:4, Funny)