Live Q&A With Outercurve Foundation President Jim Jagielski 98
Jim Jagielski is one of the co-founders of the Apache Software Foundation, a director of the Open Source Initiative (OSI), new President of the Outercurve Foundation, and as we mentioned yesterday, your interview subject for the next two hours. Mr. Jagielski will be answering your questions below until 2:00 ET (18:00 GMT). Please keep it to one question per post so everyone gets a chance.
Update: 2pm ET has come and gone. Mr. Jagielski might stick around for a bit and answer questions later so make sure to check back. A big thanks to him for his time and answers! Here's a link to his user page where you can read all his responses.
Update: 2pm ET has come and gone. Mr. Jagielski might stick around for a bit and answer questions later so make sure to check back. A big thanks to him for his time and answers! Here's a link to his user page where you can read all his responses.
New Zealand (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:New Zealand (Score:5)
Reform is what's required... and if it leads to an actual ban, well ... *grin*
Re:New Zealand (Score:5)
My thoughts are that you can't discuss the issue of s/w patents in a vacuum. There are a LOT of bad s/w patents out there, and tend to muddy the water. So I don't have an issue per se regarding s/w patents in and of themselves, but as it is know, things are really broken. So +1 to NZ for taking a stand!
Re: (Score:2)
That's definitely a statement you've made. I think I can safely say I've read it and have understood it's content entirely.
Way to go, +1 to you for replying to the question.
Re: Disastrous Outercurve outlook on s/w patents (Score:2)
Ahh, but then s/w patents aren't necessarily patents of algorithms. Lets define, exactly, what constitutes a software patent by defining what a "good" one is, and then we can debate whether the concept is OK or not.
Re:My Question (Score:5, Funny)
Only Anonymous Cowards :)
Re:My Question (Score:5)
And yet, you are here as well...
Strange, huh?
How Separate from Microsoft? (Score:1)
Outercurve was founded by but supposedly separate from Microsoft. But most of your projects are Office and Visual Studio plugins, Windows applications and .Net. How separate can you be?
Re:How Separate from Microsoft? (Score:5, Interesting)
Outercurve accepts projects from anyplace, although it's true that many of come from MS or have a distinct MS orientation. But that it common with all foundations when they start. After all, the Apache Software Foundation started w/ "just" Apache; Eclipse w/ Eclipse and even the Linux Foundation was about Linux itself. But foundations grow beyond their initial roots, and that's what we're doing w/ Outercurve.
Apache Harmony (Score:2)
Are there any plans to ever revive the Apache Harmony project (Open Source Java Platform), or is it dead forever?
Re:Apache Harmony (Score:5, Interesting)
As long as Oracle controls the EA and JCP, and it does, believe me, there's no way that Harmony could be rebooted since their requirements for access to the TCK would prevent Apache from releasing Harmony as a real Open Source project, no matter what the license of the project.
Re: (Score:2)
EA - ???
JCP - Java Community Process
TCK - Technology Compatibility Kit
Re:Apache Harmony (Score:5)
Typo: It should be the 'EC' not 'EA': Executive Committee
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Apache Harmony is dead, but GNU lives? (Score:5)
The issue is that Oracle controls who gets the TCK and they put restrictions on it for Apache that they didn't put on for themselves (OpenJDK). Despite having a signed agreement to the contrary as well as agreeing w/ Apache back before Oracle bought Sun.
Weird, huh?
Re: Apache Harmony is dead, but GNU lives? (Score:3)
Why? A couple of reasons. First of all, it was the basis for Apache entering into the EC and the JCP. Our involvement was predicted on the ability to obtain TCKs for Apache projects. Secondly, the ASF was promised it, but then denied the TCK (actually, an *open source compatible* TCK), and that's simply Not Right. Finally, the goal of creating s/w is that it be used, and the lack of certification significantly hampers that, as well as opens the project to submarine patents. Think Oracle is going to sue itse
Biggest Project? (Score:1)
What's your biggest project right now, and is it Windows related?
Re:Biggest Project? (Score:5)
I would say that the 2 "biggest" Outercurve projects are NuGet and ChronoZoom. NuGet is MS related (think Maven for .NET) but Chronozoom is universal
Oracle & NuGet Package Licensing (Score:2)
Hi. The .net product manager at Oracle recently responded to a request to have the Oracle .net provider put into a NuGet package by refusing over licensing reasons: https://forums.oracle.com/message/11149050#11149050 [oracle.com]
It's not the legal concerns around downloaders. It's the legal rights around how uploaded software is treated.
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https://www.nuget.org/policies/Terms [nuget.org]
User Submissions.
Outercurve does not want to receive confidential or proprietary information from User through the Web site. Any material, information, or other communication User transmits or posts ("Communications") to the Web site will be considered non-confidential and non-proprietary and Outercurve will be under no obligation of any kind with respect to such information. Outercurve will be free to reproduce, make derivative works from, use, disclose, and distribute the Communications to others without limitation. At our sole election, Outercurve may provide authorship attribution by listing User's name.
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As soon as I upload something to the Outercurve Foundation (via nuget.org), I've given them plenary rights to the software. That's a big problem for most commercial software distributions, including ODP.NET.
If you're an open source vendor, then this policy is fine. If Outercurve wants to distribute commercial software, it cannot co-opt ownership rights. This is the biggest issue, but there are others. For example, how can Oracle ensure that no one else on the site represents themselves as Oracle? There's no way to authenticate the "author", especially if you're downloading directly within Visual Studio.
Fundamentally, all these business issues can be boiled down to characteristics of open source (i.e. bazaar, torrents) distribution. If Outercurve introduced closed source/commercial-friendly (i.e. cathedral, iTunes) distribution, it would eliminate pretty much all of Oracle's business/legal concerns. But Outercurve is devoted to working with corporate developers in open source environments. If the component is closed source, then it doesn't fit within Outercurve's mission. That makes me skeptical they would ever support commercial distribution.
Essentially, Oracle would need to open source ODP.NET just for nuget.org distribution. That is like putting the cart before the horse.
Now, if somebody created a commercial software NuGet distribution channel, people could purchase, rent, or try out commercial software from it. That would be something Oracle would consider. That's why I asked about an alternative popular NuGet feed.
Since Outercurve is specifically mentioned here, do you have any comment on this? Is there plans to fix the situation for freely available (but commercial) tools like the Oracle provider?
Thanks.
Re:Oracle & NuGet Package Licensing (Score:5, Informative)
I am not aware of the details of that situation, but, to be honest, I'm not sure what they are talking about. The policy terms are similar to those of numerous FOSS organizations, which are based around the idea of openness and transparency. That's what the point of that statement is regarding User Submissions.
Re: (Score:2)
The situation is essentially that the base NuGet repository is a highly convenient way for Visual Studio users to get packages, and people want the Oracle .net provider to be there. Oracle says they can't put it there because it's not open source (it's free as in beer).
Re:Former /. Editor (Score:4)
Slashdot is now one of many great places to get info; back in the "glory days" it was one of a very small number.
I think that relevance is hard to gauge in many ways, and that's why more "crowd-sourced" venues are popular, because they allow the masses to determine what's important and not. But, as can be seen w/ Wikipedia for example, the masses aren't always "correct" :) But relying on known experts and people *really* in touch w/ the community is also a Good Thing and could be encouraged a bit more.
Re:Seriously (Score:5)
Evah rever on.
Re:Never heard of him or "outercurve" (Score:5)
Uh oh. He's onto us.
Attic (Score:3)
How tough is it to consign a project to the Attic?
Re:Attic (Score:5)
The Apache Attic?
Open Grumpiness (Score:1)
Re:Open Grumpiness (Score:5)
Who knows... maybe because he lives in Canada
*duck*
I was a *joke*
Software freedom (Score:3)
If you care about software freedom, why doesn't your organization promote copyleft type licenses like the GPL?
Sadly, the apache license doesn't require others to release the code, and helps proprietary projects.
Re:Software freedom (Score:5)
I do care about Software Freedom, but I also care about User Freedom itself. Open Source and Free Software have a lot more in common than people think, but it is the differences which people focus on and which, imo, make it easier for FLOSS detractors to "prove" that FLOSS is broken. Apache may focus on the ALv2, but Outercurve accepts all Open Source and Free Software licenses.
Re:Software freedom (Score:5)
Also, to be clear, even though I'm mostly associated with the ALv2, I hack and develop code under a bunch of other license as well, including GPL, et.al.
A license is a tool, and you pick the license based on how you want, or don't want, your code to be distributed, used and shared. There is no one-size-fits-all license, and your choice of license should be done with some thought, not based on who has the longest or bushiest beard. :)=
Re: (Score:2)
If you care about software freedom, why doesn't your organization promote copyleft type licenses like the GPL?
Sadly, the apache license doesn't require others to release the code, and helps proprietary projects.
The software company I work for can't use code licensed under the GPL. Thankfully, Apache projects are not GPL'd, so we can contribute back to them.
Think about that for a minute.
Why so popular? (Score:1)
âoeMr. Burns, Your Campaign Seems To Have the Momentum of a Runaway Freight Train. Why Are You So Popular?â
Re:Why so popular? (Score:5, Funny)
Dashing good looks. Expert coding skills. Oratory skills of a god. And exceptional humility.
Any particular targets? (Score:2)
The OuterCurve Foundation mission statement [outercurve.org] says the Foundation "has no pre-suppositions about particular projects, platforms, or open source licenses." But are there some specific projects that you, personally, would like to work with? Projects you think would benefit the open source community greatly by what you do?
Re:Any particular targets? (Score:5)
For me, Open Source is all about empowerment and enabling people to share information for the betterment of mankind. So I am personally drawn towards projects that enable that at some level. I am also about education and advocacy of that empowerment, and that's why I enjoy speaking and presenting about Open Source and communities as much as I do.
Of course, some projects are just fun to hack on and scratch some little itch that I have...
Hadoop's outrageous popularity (Score:2)
Is Hadoop going to take over the world? Or, I guess an appropriately in-scope question is, do you plan for Hadoop to take over the world? And if so, what happens when it is so aggressively co-opted by private companies that it becomes too difficult to maintain as an actual open platform (ahem Android)?
Re:Hadoop's outrageous popularity (Score:5)
Open Source will take over the world... Hadoop will be one, of many, open source projects that enable that.
Re:Dla cziego Apache nie robisz DNT? (Score:5)
The whole DNT issue is now over and done...
Re:Thanks for answering (do vidzenje) (Score:5)
Thx!
Yet another foundation (Score:1)
Why do we need another foundation. Couldn't our time and money be better spent focusing on what is already out there?
Re:Yet another foundation (Score:5)
In the trenches, it may seem as if FLOSS has won, but it hasn't... at least not yet. There is still quite a bit of FUD related to it, especially in the gov't arena. So any foundation or entity which helps promote FLOSS is useful.
Outercurve sets out to do some of the things that other foundations don't. For example, we are agnostic about governance models and which FLOSS license to use, which separates it from some more well-known foundations :) But also the main focus of OC to to provide in-depth assistance in mentoring projects and helping them reach their potential. It's a much more "hands-on" foundation, and that's why our mentors are so important. Most foundations assume that projects and people have a pretty good understanding of open source; Outercurve actually teaches it.
Benefits to Developers who are mentored by ASF (Score:2)
Re:Benefits to Developers who are mentored by ASF (Score:5)
Haters gonna hate.
Re:Benefits to Developers who are mentored by ASF (Score:5)
But to your question: I feel that the ASF does a great job enriching the community, even if just because it realized that the *power* of the community is what drives open source and open source projects.
Re:Why did you sell out? (Score:5)
What did Spock say was that old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China
Re: Why did you sell out? (Score:2)
Just to be clear, I did not "sell out" nor did anyone associated with Outercurve. It's a shame that little brains can only hold so much info before their lower intestines take up the load.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Here's a dime. Buy a clue.
First of all, Outercurve != Microsoft.
Secondly, I work for Red Hat, which is open as Open Source as you can get.
Thirdly, I am also on the board of Apache and OSI. Maybe you've heard of them.
Fourthly, your ignorance is showing.
Fifthly, Bananas are the Atheists' Nightmare.
Re:Ballmer's retirement (Score:5)
Outercurve isn't a part of MS at all. So it'll have no impact although, if the new CEO is more "understanding" of Open Source, it's likely that there will be opportunities for Outercurve and other orgs to help MS see the light.
Re: (Score:2)
Outercurve isn't a part of MS at all. So it'll have no impact although, if the new CEO is more "understanding" of Open Source, it's likely that there will be opportunities for Outercurve and other orgs to help MS see the light.
Since MS is a publicly traded mega-corporation. They just happens to sell software as one of their meriad ways to make money, I don't see how they could be made to "see the light." Unless you mean to stop selling software as part of their business?
Re: (Score:2)
Open Source doesn't mean stop selling software. Just ask Red Hat, who aren't exactly small. And even being Open Source friendly doesn't mean doing Open Source yourself.
Why Outercurve over ASF or other Foundations? (Score:1)
Re:Why Outercurve over ASF or other Foundations? (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all, Github isn't a foundation. It's infrastructure. If all you want and need is someplace to host your project, Github is fine.
If, however, you want to build a *community* around your project, then you need the sort of help and guidance that a foundation provides. ASF, Eclipse, Outercurve, et.al. have some underlying "requirements" regarding that (for example, at the ASF the project must be under the ALv2, at Eclipse it must be the EPL (although there are ways around that)). Outercurve has the lowest barrier to that. OC doesn't force one license or another (it must be an Open Source license though), nor does it force a particular governance model, nor a specific infrastructure. In fact, I would suggest that people who are hosting their projects @ Github and really want them to be a viable Open Source project, *needs* a foundation like Outercurve to help them make that transition. Most projects on Github don't even have an associated LICENSE. Sweet Sassy Molassy!
Re:Full Plate (Score:5)
I am passionate about Open Source. So anything I can do to help with that, especially when it's directed towards the grassroots developers and their projects, I am drawn to. Being asked to be President allows for Outercurve to really ramp up the efforts started by Sam Ramji in making Outercurve an influential foundation.
Plus, I'm out of my mind. :)
Re:Still write code? (Score:5)
Yes, I still write a LOT of code, and I really enjoy doing it.
I would be remiss in not saying that I'm lucky enough to work for Red Hat, which is as passionate about Open Source as I am, and they allow me to indulge in all my Open Source efforts, from coding to the speaking/leadership stuff.
I think what's cool is that whatever organizational and leadership stuff I do, or am known for, arose from my actual coding efforts. It was all kind of "placed" on me, instead of me trying to grab it. And I am hardly unique in that regards. I love how open source does that, that the experts are those who walk-the-walk and talk-the-talk and not just talking heads.
Re:Still write code? (Score:5)
In fact, I *STILL* hack on Apache httpd... So that's about 18+ years of steady development on that project.
Re:Microsoft (Score:5)
Simply because they *don't* have the best record. One can either gripe and complain, or one can spend some effort in education with the hopes that you make some change for the better. No matter what, it's worth a try. And slowly but surely we *are* seeing some positive changes, and that's a Good Thing.
Question for everyone else (Score:5)
What efforts would *you* like to see Outercurve (or whoever) take on to benefit the FLOSS community??
Re: (Score:1)
I'd like to see it put more emphasis on the fact that it is a different entity from Microsoft. I think part of the reason that it still has so many MS-centric projects is because people perceive it as being MS, which leads to there only being MS-centric projects. It's a vicious cycle.
Re: (Score:1)
Put up a strong statement against software patents on your front page and make it a key component of your values statement.
Re:What's in a name (Score:5)
Mostly it was to disassociate the foundation with the Codeplex hosting service. People would, understandably, get them confused, and it further strengthened the belief that the foundation was a "sham" by Microsoft. So we went with Outercurve to create our *own* identity.
Re:Why do I need a license (Score:5)
Without a license, whatever code you produce is assumed to be under a copyright. That means legally people can't make copies, etc... A License is what provides the freedoms and openness required to allow people to see your code, share your code, distribute your code, etc...
That's why all those projects on Github that don't have a license are soooooo scary. Even though you can fork, etc, you have no real *rights* to do much of anything which the code. It's the license which grants those rights and freedoms.
Re:Would Outercurve have accepted the OpenOffice f (Score:5)
Well, the question assumes that Oracle would have donated OpenOffice to Outercurve... I think it's kind of obvious that Oracle wanted it to go to the ASF and that other options weren't on the table. Now this could be implied as a Good Thing (a sort of olive branch towards Apache after the Java fiasco), or a Bad Thing (let those SOBs at Apache take all the heat), depending on one's world-view and mindset.
IMO, the "community" is much larger than "just" the LibreOffice community or the old OpenOffice community. The various versions and offshoots of OpenOffice are all part of this larger community, and so the question also assumes that "the community" is just LibreOffice itself, which I disagree with.
In all cases, IMO Outercurve would have handled it similarly to the way the ASF did: accept the code donation and welcome any and all comers with open arms. What would have happened after *that* is anyone's guess.
Re:Shared Source (Score:5)
Both the Microsoft Public License and the Microsoft Reciprocal License are Free and Open Source licenses (as determined by the FSF and OSI). The others ain't and so there's no need to use them, imo.
Re: (Score:2)
Ahhh... good ol' jagubox. I recall that old A/UX server warmly and credit it with my 1st real "claim to fame" on the Interwebs. But jagubox is, sadly, no more, having long ago been retired after I left NASA. There are a handful of mirrors around, last I checked.
Thx for the memories!