>> A quiet place to work >> Clear instruction about tasks. Vagueness does not work. >> No sudden surprises at the work place. >> Written instructions for work that requires a sequence of tasks. Provide a “pilot’s checklist.” >> Correct social mistakes in a clear, calm, direct manner. Hints do not work.
I'll bet 7 out of 10 developers would agree with Grandin's requirements for an autistic-friendly business environment.
I sure would and I'm not autistic. I can't stand the new "cafeteria table" style open plan workplaces. You can't concentrate on anything, hold a phone conversation with a customer/vendor, or do anything that doesn't involve talking to the 10 other colleagues crammed into your little workspace.
I wonder who dreamed up all this open-plan stuff. I have a suspicion that management cloaked this in the guise of management speak like "synergism" and so on, when actually all it is, is a way to keep the cost of office space down.
Did most managers give up their private offices? I didn't think so.
It's pretty simple: open environments are significantly cheaper. They put more people in the same space. Lost productivity is a cost that is hidden from the bottom line
Blame it on the Germans. Apparently some Germans took what had already been common in factories since the industrial revolution and perfected it for office environments during the 1950s. PHBs everywhere have been frothing from the neck ever since.
Interestingly, the 'advantages' section of the Wikipedia page for open plan offices [wikipedia.org] simply states "This section requires expansion". That's it? Nothing? The collective intellect of the entire internet population, after so many years, can't even think of with one l
When I hire programmers, I want programmers that can take vague requirements, apply their intelligence and experience, and provide a solution that works well and can evolve*. Sometimes this might mean the ability to convince me my requirements are ill-considered. If they aren't self-motivated and self-directed, they're wasting my time.
That's fine if you have a small team that can communicate and work well together, but on larger projects the overhead makes that kind of collaboration impossible and having everyone running off and producing their own solutions is a recipe for disaster and you'll end up with people arguing over how it should be done and an utter nightmare when it comes to integrating the various pieces. Sometimes its a lot easier to iron out the requirements, produce a very detailed design, and only leave minor implementati
... six months later you've built the prototype of those ironed-out-requirements and detailed-design to find it is not what the customer actually wanted.
Agreed for a technician-, basic coder or clerical-level position, but at the developer, engineer or similar professional-level position it is a reasonable expectation for the employee to work on tasks that can't be clearly defined in advanced, that don't have checklists (creating one may be a deliverable of the professional), and surprise or firefighting type situations that the techs and clericals can't resolve with the pre-existing check lists. Granted it is possible to reduce surprises with basic workplace stuff like meeting agendas and advance notice of policies, but one the flip side dealing with urgent, unplanned issues is an important part of most jobs.
It's a difficult road to navigate. I'll add a suggestion from the other side, as someone who has managed people with this style of accommodations due to ASD-type conditions. Be as open and willing to collaborate with your supervisor as possible; help educate them. If you only work through an HR person to specify your ADA or other workplace accommodations, there is an extremely limited amount of information they can legally share with your supervisor. Of course it is your legal right to keep these things private if you choose, but it makes it much harder for your supervisor to meet your needs and to foster a productive work environment for you. It does require some trust, but the outcome can be much better. I've had it go both ways.
I was going to point this exact thing out, so it's great to see you already did.
Reading that list astonished me, because it's such a perfect description for how I wish my workplace was. And yet, when I say I wish it was quieter so I can focus on programming, I'm asked why I hate teamwork and collaboration and am told just to wear headphones.
Interviews like this bring up interesting points, especially the "Businesses and autism" part. I'm nowhere near autistic/Aspergers/whatever, but I feel for those who do because I certainly tend towards being an introvert. One thing to think about is this -- with the increasing numbers of people being diagnosed on the autism spectrum, where are we going to employ them?
Software dev and IT used to be perfect places for introverts to work -- good pay, interesting work that doesn't involve a lot of personal interaction, etc. One thing I worry about is that with the current offshoring/outsourcing trend, businesses will continue letting these task-oriented IT jobs move somewhere else rather than have to deal with the "weird IT/dev guys." Increasingly, you need to be an extroverted person to be in IT, because often you're the last man standing in the "onshore team" who has to answer for the offshore teams' latest screwups.
I'm guessing the last places for employment for those who don't want to act like salesmen are going to be in scientific research...unfortunately that's a field that many IT or dev people wouldn't be able to deal with.
I'm guessing the last places for employment for those who don't want to act like salesmen are going to be in scientific research...unfortunately that's a field that many IT or dev people wouldn't be able to deal with.
Sadly, I think that scientific research is more sales than science already. If you can't schmooze, politic and author grants at a world-class level, your research will never get funded in the first place.
Where are all the buggy makers going to work when people stop driving buggies?
Where are all of the film developers going to work when people stop using film?
Where are all of the steel workers going to work when we ship our foundries to China?
Where are all of the assembly line workers going to work when we replace them with robots?
Where are all of the secretaries from the pool going to work when we replace them with computers and software?
This question, time and time again. The answer(s)?
1. Subsisten
"Where are all the buggy makers going to work when people stop driving buggies?" Service jobs. "Where are all of the film developers going to work when people stop using film?" Service jobs. "Where are all of the steel workers going to work when we ship our foundries to China?" Service jobs. "Where are all of the assembly line workers going to work when we replace them with robots?" Service jobs. "Where are all of the secretaries from the pool going to work when we replace them with computers and software?" Service
You know, enforcing funny little rules like "actions have consequences", setting expectations for behavior and performance, the sort of thing that seems out of favor in today's world where no kid can be criticized, no kid can be allowed to lose, and so on.
Not to say that everything is better today--- in an older day abusive corporal punishment was acceptable, for instance--- but it seems there ought to be middle ground.
Partly the dynamics of this sort of thing, at least as it comes to social (especially romantic) relationships, play a big role. Using romantic as an example, traditionally, men are more expected to be direct, taking a proactive role - they're supposed to be the one who asks the woman out. Again, from a traditional standpoint, the woman isn't supposed to take direct action - instead, she's expected to drop subtle hints. (Again, this is speaking in the old/traditional sense)
The problem comes when, for whatever reason, the other party doesn't pick up on those signals (either of interest or lack thereof). It makes things a lot harder, for what should be obvious reasons. Autism can very easily lead to this sort of problem, but is hardly the only one.
I had trouble with my social development as a child. Some of it's clearly genetic. My father isn't completely socially incapable (although he did benefit from 1950's parenting methods and two older sisters who were not socially handicapped in any way), but he shows signs of high-functioning autism. But it isn't just that. My father shows signs of having at least mild narcissistic disorder, and my mother is unmistakably borderline. (Not sure what my father's excuse is, but my mother was the victim of child abuse, and her parents were much worse than mine.) So my parents didn't do a good job of teaching me social skills. Mostly, I just got into trouble for things I just didn't understand. Even after I developed empathy in around the 8th grade, I didn't know how to use it, and there was nobody I could talk to who was insightful enough to help me figure it out.
But then when I was in my 20's, away from my parents, and perhaps having outgrown some of the innate problems, I encountered co-workers who had the patience to explain to me my social mistakes without all the "what the fuck is the matter with you" kind of reaction. Instead, they explained to me clearly and calmly (albeit with concern in their mannerisms) what I did, what it meant, and how people perceived it. I was receptive, and they were willing to help, and this lead to a rapid growth in my social ability through my 20's.
What I've learned to do is PAY ATTENTION. I know that I have a disconnect, so I have developed a conscious habit of opening my eyes and just listening to and watching what's going on and associating people's emotional reactions (which I can read) with the social circumstances that lead to them. I'm also a bit of a goofball, which I have learned to leverage. So I smile, make jokes, and get people to talk about themselves, and people now find me to be rather charming.
It's been a long road getting from there to here.:)
Correct. It varies with species and with how well you know them. However using words does not necessarily reflect how you think. And one can think in multiple ways.
As an example: We have a large pack of working dogs on our farm who help with our livestock, keep down predators and assist us in tasks.
Our dogs have their own language. It is a mix of vocal and body language.
Our dogs understand a large part of our human language - English in our case.
We and the dogs also have a common pidgin language between us
I didn't know who Temple was until stumbling upon the movie made about her. It would have been nice to get her take on how factual it is. My wife an I really enjoyed it.
Autistic-friendly business environment (Score:5, Insightful)
>> A quiet place to work
>> Clear instruction about tasks. Vagueness does not work.
>> No sudden surprises at the work place.
>> Written instructions for work that requires a sequence of tasks. Provide a “pilot’s checklist.”
>> Correct social mistakes in a clear, calm, direct manner. Hints do not work.
I'll bet 7 out of 10 developers would agree with Grandin's requirements for an autistic-friendly business environment.
Re:Autistic-friendly business environment (Score:5, Insightful)
I sure would and I'm not autistic. I can't stand the new "cafeteria table" style open plan workplaces. You can't concentrate on anything, hold a phone conversation with a customer/vendor, or do anything that doesn't involve talking to the 10 other colleagues crammed into your little workspace.
Re:Autistic-friendly business environment (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder who dreamed up all this open-plan stuff. I have a suspicion that management cloaked this in the guise of management speak like "synergism" and so on, when actually all it is, is a way to keep the cost of office space down.
Did most managers give up their private offices? I didn't think so.
Re: (Score:2)
As with everything... (Score:2)
Blame it on the Germans. Apparently some Germans took what had already been common in factories since the industrial revolution and perfected it for office environments during the 1950s. PHBs everywhere have been frothing from the neck ever since.
Interestingly, the 'advantages' section of the Wikipedia page for open plan offices [wikipedia.org] simply states "This section requires expansion". That's it? Nothing? The collective intellect of the entire internet population, after so many years, can't even think of with one l
Re: (Score:2)
I believe these requirements should be as universal as possible, not just for autistics.
Re:Autistic-friendly business environment (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't consider them autism friendly environment rules, I consider them to be business friendly environment rules.
Re: (Score:2)
When I hire programmers, I want programmers that can take vague requirements, apply their intelligence and experience, and provide a solution that works well and can evolve*. Sometimes this might mean the ability to convince me my requirements are ill-considered. If they aren't self-motivated and self-directed, they're wasting my time.
That's fine if you have a small team that can communicate and work well together, but on larger projects the overhead makes that kind of collaboration impossible and having everyone running off and producing their own solutions is a recipe for disaster and you'll end up with people arguing over how it should be done and an utter nightmare when it comes to integrating the various pieces. Sometimes its a lot easier to iron out the requirements, produce a very detailed design, and only leave minor implementati
Re: (Score:2)
... six months later you've built the prototype of those ironed-out-requirements and detailed-design to find it is not what the customer actually wanted.
Re:Autistic-friendly business environment (Score:5, Interesting)
Agreed for a technician-, basic coder or clerical-level position, but at the developer, engineer or similar professional-level position it is a reasonable expectation for the employee to work on tasks that can't be clearly defined in advanced, that don't have checklists (creating one may be a deliverable of the professional), and surprise or firefighting type situations that the techs and clericals can't resolve with the pre-existing check lists. Granted it is possible to reduce surprises with basic workplace stuff like meeting agendas and advance notice of policies, but one the flip side dealing with urgent, unplanned issues is an important part of most jobs.
It's a difficult road to navigate. I'll add a suggestion from the other side, as someone who has managed people with this style of accommodations due to ASD-type conditions. Be as open and willing to collaborate with your supervisor as possible; help educate them. If you only work through an HR person to specify your ADA or other workplace accommodations, there is an extremely limited amount of information they can legally share with your supervisor. Of course it is your legal right to keep these things private if you choose, but it makes it much harder for your supervisor to meet your needs and to foster a productive work environment for you. It does require some trust, but the outcome can be much better. I've had it go both ways.
LOL, managamers... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I was going to point this exact thing out, so it's great to see you already did.
Reading that list astonished me, because it's such a perfect description for how I wish my workplace was. And yet, when I say I wish it was quieter so I can focus on programming, I'm asked why I hate teamwork and collaboration and am told just to wear headphones.
Autism and future employment trends (Score:3)
Interviews like this bring up interesting points, especially the "Businesses and autism" part. I'm nowhere near autistic/Aspergers/whatever, but I feel for those who do because I certainly tend towards being an introvert. One thing to think about is this -- with the increasing numbers of people being diagnosed on the autism spectrum, where are we going to employ them?
Software dev and IT used to be perfect places for introverts to work -- good pay, interesting work that doesn't involve a lot of personal interaction, etc. One thing I worry about is that with the current offshoring/outsourcing trend, businesses will continue letting these task-oriented IT jobs move somewhere else rather than have to deal with the "weird IT/dev guys." Increasingly, you need to be an extroverted person to be in IT, because often you're the last man standing in the "onshore team" who has to answer for the offshore teams' latest screwups.
I'm guessing the last places for employment for those who don't want to act like salesmen are going to be in scientific research...unfortunately that's a field that many IT or dev people wouldn't be able to deal with.
Re:Autism and future employment trends (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm guessing the last places for employment for those who don't want to act like salesmen are going to be in scientific research...unfortunately that's a field that many IT or dev people wouldn't be able to deal with.
Sadly, I think that scientific research is more sales than science already. If you can't schmooze, politic and author grants at a world-class level, your research will never get funded in the first place.
Re: (Score:2)
Where are all of the film developers going to work when people stop using film?
Where are all of the steel workers going to work when we ship our foundries to China?
Where are all of the assembly line workers going to work when we replace them with robots?
Where are all of the secretaries from the pool going to work when we replace them with computers and software?
This question, time and time again. The answer(s)?
1. Subsisten
Re: (Score:2)
"Where are all the buggy makers going to work when people stop driving buggies?"
Service jobs.
"Where are all of the film developers going to work when people stop using film?"
Service jobs.
"Where are all of the steel workers going to work when we ship our foundries to China?"
Service jobs.
"Where are all of the assembly line workers going to work when we replace them with robots?"
Service jobs.
"Where are all of the secretaries from the pool going to work when we replace them with computers and software?"
Service
Explain more (Score:2, Insightful)
"Both my geeky classmates and myself benefited from 1950’s methods of parenting, where social skills were taught in a more structured way."
What structured way is he referring to ?
Re: (Score:3)
You know, enforcing funny little rules like "actions have consequences", setting expectations for behavior and performance, the sort of thing that seems out of favor in today's world where no kid can be criticized, no kid can be allowed to lose, and so on.
Not to say that everything is better today--- in an older day abusive corporal punishment was acceptable, for instance--- but it seems there ought to be middle ground.
So that makes all men autistic? (Score:2)
Correct social mistakes in a clear, calm, direct manner. Hints do not work
Or maybe just guys in relationshipsv
Re:So that makes all men autistic? (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem comes when, for whatever reason, the other party doesn't pick up on those signals (either of interest or lack thereof). It makes things a lot harder, for what should be obvious reasons. Autism can very easily lead to this sort of problem, but is hardly the only one.
Living with Autism is easy (Score:5, Interesting)
Living in an irrational society full of people that can't mind their own business is the hard part.
The statement about clear social instructions (Score:4, Interesting)
I had trouble with my social development as a child. Some of it's clearly genetic. My father isn't completely socially incapable (although he did benefit from 1950's parenting methods and two older sisters who were not socially handicapped in any way), but he shows signs of high-functioning autism. But it isn't just that. My father shows signs of having at least mild narcissistic disorder, and my mother is unmistakably borderline. (Not sure what my father's excuse is, but my mother was the victim of child abuse, and her parents were much worse than mine.) So my parents didn't do a good job of teaching me social skills. Mostly, I just got into trouble for things I just didn't understand. Even after I developed empathy in around the 8th grade, I didn't know how to use it, and there was nobody I could talk to who was insightful enough to help me figure it out.
But then when I was in my 20's, away from my parents, and perhaps having outgrown some of the innate problems, I encountered co-workers who had the patience to explain to me my social mistakes without all the "what the fuck is the matter with you" kind of reaction. Instead, they explained to me clearly and calmly (albeit with concern in their mannerisms) what I did, what it meant, and how people perceived it. I was receptive, and they were willing to help, and this lead to a rapid growth in my social ability through my 20's.
What I've learned to do is PAY ATTENTION. I know that I have a disconnect, so I have developed a conscious habit of opening my eyes and just listening to and watching what's going on and associating people's emotional reactions (which I can read) with the social circumstances that lead to them. I'm also a bit of a goofball, which I have learned to leverage. So I smile, make jokes, and get people to talk about themselves, and people now find me to be rather charming.
It's been a long road getting from there to here. :)
Re: (Score:1)
Where is my Seaquest DSV-style prairie dog translator!? I want one as a pet that I can talk to!
Re: (Score:3)
Correct. It varies with species and with how well you know them. However using words does not necessarily reflect how you think. And one can think in multiple ways.
As an example: We have a large pack of working dogs on our farm who help with our livestock, keep down predators and assist us in tasks.
Our dogs have their own language. It is a mix of vocal and body language.
Our dogs understand a large part of our human language - English in our case.
We and the dogs also have a common pidgin language between us
Temple's Movie (Score:2)
I didn't know who Temple was until stumbling upon the movie made about her. It would have been nice to get her take on how factual it is. My wife an I really enjoyed it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt12... [imdb.com]