Line Slaying: The Final Frontier 196
Technology almost always works in unpredictable ways. Sometimes the fanciest and most revolutionary stuff leaves the oddest legacies affecting people in small but meaningful ways. People know about online sex, crackers and e-trading, but few credit the Net with one of its potentially greatest benefits: the Net is a natural born Lineslayer.
And the biggest remaining lines on Earth form around government.
One of the last great frontiers awaiting transformation by the Net, government is surely the most reactionary and least innovative sector of the economy or public life. Bovine as it is, it is one of the most lucrative computing markets in the world. Online business analysts have been drooling for years over government e-business, the vast majority of it still up for grabs. Forrester Research estimates that local governments alone collect $450 billion annually in fines alone, mostly in person or by mail.
Convenience isn't the only benefit to citizens: think of the bureaucratic, paper and postal savings that would come from issuing permits and certificates and collecting fines on the Net. E-government can also begin to set up the infrastructure to give governments and voters the confidence and experience to begin online voting, polling and town meetings. As companies like Ford, Delta and Intel begin giving employees free computers and Net access as a fringe benefit of employment, universal access to the Net -- thus to digital democracy -- is no longer a fantasy.
In fact, it's astonishing that so few state or national politicians have yet figured out what a great political issue it is that governments aren't serving citizens by wiring up as rapidly as possible.
Neo-Luddites are forever lamenting the lack of human contact the Internet has wrought (remember-when-you-got-to-say-hi-to-the-bank-teller?). Anybody lost in tech support or telephone hell can sympathize. But some forms of human contact can be blessedly dispensed with -- like lines.
Online banking is killing off the lines at tellers windows. Electronic toll devices are shortening lines at highway toll booths. E-ticketing makes it possible to stroll into movie megaplexes, stick your credit card in an ATM-like machine and whisk past all the suckers waiting at the box office. E-ticketing at airports can save hours at check-in lines, dragging along heavy baggage. Some lucky college students can skip once-dreaded queues by registering online. Shoppers who don't love circling crowded malls for hours now have the option of online shopping. People who value human contact in these contexts can still have it, and are welcome to it. But few people in the 21st Century will be lamenting the death of waiting in lines.
But the Net hasn't yet busted the lines in the worst, most bureaucratic places. Businesses are usually under pressure to be responsive to their consumers; they embrace transactional software because it lowers their costs and provides convenient service while eliminating lines. Government, which ought to be especially responsive to its constituents, isn't.
Some Net start-ups who want to drag government into the 21st Century are already in operation -- like New York-based http://www.govWorks.com and Atlanta's http://www.ezgov.com. But by and large, government has been slow to digitize, suspicious of security issues, lagging in leadership or innovation, lacking enough staffers with strong computing sensibilities.
But this state of affairs can't last. One day soon, politicians will figure out that they can score with voters by recognizing that digital technologies can sometimes improve life, especially by eliminating those nightmarish motor vehicle and permit lines. This could impress the public even more than bullying librarians to install blocking programs to keep Johnny off the Playboy Web site.
According to the Wall Street Journal, some cities -- like Stamford, Conn. and Springfield, Mass. -- have begun allowing electronic payments of taxes, permits, and utility bills.
But most local and state governments don't do much business online, or allow their residents to, a particularly relevant reality in cities where grueling lines are facts of life for busy taxpayers.
For once, an enormous windfall for software and computer makers may actually prove likewise a boon to citizens, assuming sluggish and self-interested bureaucrats can be prodded along. Doing civic business on the Net may also shock government into entering the 21st century. Lineslaying probably wasn't a benefit the founders of the Net had in mind, but it might turn out to be one of its most appreciated and unforeseen contributions.
Huh. VA seems to be doing a decent job, at the DMV (Score:1)
Wow, the "technology state" is actually getting something right. !
'lines' (Score:1)
The govt. *is* modernizing... (Score:3)
Katz.. (Score:3)
50 Internal server error
The server is too busy, please try back again later.
Or how about this famous one:
Connection timed out.
Oh, the lines are still there..
Won't Happen (Score:1)
Neo-Luddites (Score:1)
I think that Katz needs to read Kurzwiel's "The Age of Spiritual Machines" - in which he explains how the technologists are like the Neo-Luddites, and are just as weary about the application of the technology. Remember, Katz, just because we're Geeks [thinkgeek.com] , that doesn't mean that we like all of the new-fangled e-commerce hoopla. Slaying the physical lines? We don't all stay inside all of the time. Often we'd rather go out than shop for something online. While items that were traditionally done through mail and telephone can be replaced with the computer, the computer can't replace a real-life exerience - of standing in line and talking to the chick in front of you.
Geek profiling lull? (Score:1)
You can get a weather report without waiting for the evening news or the radio to get to it, you can get social security retirement estimates, and file you taxes and your student loan applications without moving your fat ass out of your chair.
Next, please.
Killing off line?!?! (Score:1)
----------------------------------------
This makes me think... (Score:3)
Re:'lines' (Score:1)
Yeah, but it's not nearly as much fun being on dole here in the States. ;)
-carlSome governments are making an effort (Score:2)
You mean "queue"? (Score:2)
As for government automation, I don't know how it is in the US but here in Europe you can do almost everything via snail-mail. The only time you would be required to actually go to a place would be to show your passport or other identification papers or perhaps a contract or deed, and I really can't see how the Internet could help out here.
Also, almost all official forms are available in PDF format, at least where I live. What's it like in the US?
Re:Katz.. (Score:1)
The HTTP/1.1 error code for "Internal Server Error" is 500, not 50.
I've been to hell, I spell it DMV (Score:1)
Maybe we can get them to start accepting speeding tickets online (Not that I have any:-))
City of Yellowknife (Score:4)
Here's the part where you can pay your bills [yellowknife.nt.ca].
In fact I think we just got a 5 million dollar grant in order to improve and expand this program.
Why not pay by post? (Score:1)
Do we really want Govt. doing this? (Score:1)
If it were to happen, I would hope that the lowest bidder doing the job would put the specs of what they propose online for the general (and geek) public to see and recieve feedback based on those specs. That way, I would feel more comfortable with putting valuable personal data in the hands of 1's and 0's instead of paper.
*As for my comments about the OS', please understand that I am not slamming Linux. I use it in a productive environment, and I have had no problems. The scale of what is proposed here, though, would make me think twice even about the mighty Penguin.
Bryan R.
Re:Speaking of movies (Score:1)
Brian Carnell (Score:2)
Infastructure (Score:3)
Line length is not really a problem (Score:5)
Imagine my surprise when the office ringed the bells and advanced the numbers in steps approximately 20 seconds apart. Waiting no longer than ten minutes (on comfy leather chairs, not in a line) my number showed up and I entered the actual office. The processing of my application for a new passport took only a few seconds, and I was even able to pay with my card. Next to my desk, one of the public servants had problems with her computer.
Even more impressive was what I observed on the desk next to mine, where a public servant had problems with her computer. Not only was she able to summon a technician who helped her to fix the problem almost immediately, but obviously there were procedures to handle this case, as the other desks where taking over her duties during her downtime.
All this had no longer a feel of bureaucracy to it. In fact service was faster and felt more professional than many privately owned companies I have seen from the inside, except perhaps McDonalds. It was frighteningly efficient.
© Copyright 2000 Kristian Köhntopp
Not going to happen (Score:2)
On a side note, this would probably bring us one step closer to Direct Democracy instead of this whole "elected representation" thing.
Beware TPB
Re:Huh. VA seems to be doing a decent job, at the (Score:1)
They may move slowly... but at least they're moving.
KATZ! (Score:4)
KATZ!
Darn right!
Who is the man that would write a book for his brother man?
KATZ!
Can you dig it?
Who's the cat that won't stop yakkin' when there's evil people hackin'?
KATZ!
Right On!
They say this cat Katz is a bad writer...
SHUT YOUR MOUTH!
I'm only talkin' 'bout Katz.
THEN WE CAN DIG IT!
He's a complicated man but no one understands him like his fan club.
JOHN KATZ!
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].
low bidder not the only worry (Score:1)
Univerisities (Score:1)
same for you and me (Score:1)
Again, JonKatz gets it but doesn't. (Score:3)
Any kind of buffering is a queue. The webserver could maintain a queue of incoming connections and serve them in order. This is done becuase of limitations in bandwidth, just like you queue at the bank becuase of the limited number of tellers around! THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!
But the issue of fairplay comes in. It is somehow fair or just to serve queues in a First-In-First-Out operation. Go to a bank queue and try jumping it. You will get hostile stares. But use a technological means to jump queues on the internet, and nobody is the wiser. Software can be set up to prefer to serve women over men for example. Since you don't read the source, nobody would know if this was fair or not. Why did your online application fail because "the quota was exceeded"? Is it becuase you have a slow 56k modem while the other guy is behind a T1?
So putting such transactions online make lower the transparency of government. This is a problem that deserves to be looked at.
My Experience and Unions (Score:1)
from the what-about-security? dept. (Score:3)
If someone puts it online, someone else will try to crack it. Since the information they're dealing with is private and must be Web-accessible, the possibility of cracking is that much more attractive.
On the optimistic side, could the government finally realize that strong crypto is necessary? I'm not entrusting my SSN to a 40-bit connection!
-- LoonXTall
Uhh (Score:3)
Let me tell you, this Internet thing has not made the morning commute on I-494, I-94, or I-35W any friggin easier. There simply is no e-commerce Beowolf cluster solution to solve Minnesota's season of road construction. Nope, no revolution here, so hang up and drive.
Re:'lines' (Score:1)
try http://www.open.gov.uk [open.gov.uk]
it does have some serious downsides though, it just takes one small trojan to get the details from your PC & then, duplicate passports, drivers license, your house deeds, etc.
If someone files a VAT return for you showing you owe 20 grand, ok you can probably clear it up but it ain't gonna be fun.
All these things are going to happen, but rushing them is a long long way from being a good idea, otherwise we are going to see government in the same position as e-commerce, people billed and records lost, credit card numbers everywhere...
It is possible to argue that all that is needed is better security, but that just isn't going to happen at the user level, "Hi Mr Katz?, this is the IRS, we'd just like to clear up a few details with your return, first could you please answer a couple of questions to confirm your identity"
The internet needs a feature freeze to get the bugs out, not a headlong rush to make sure we never have to risk skin cancer ever again.
uh oh, too much coffee mwahahahhehehe
Re:Do we really want Govt. doing this? (Score:1)
Here's the thing, everything is built by the lowest bidder. That isn't to say that there are not qualifications for bidding. If I want a government contract I can't just say "I'll do it for $50" then run off with the cash, and do you think that the government doesn't use computers now? Do you think the government has some big filing cabinet where they keep all of your files? If so, do you think that this is more secure? Here in Va we had an incident a few years back where a county courthouse burned down, and they lost all their records for the last 150 years or so, and since it was all on paper, the backups were at best incomplete.
Online taxes (Score:1)
With local governments (In NY, at least), it is more difficult to pay taxes, but you can do other things. You can start petitions, request services (such as having your pot-hole infested street fixed), and even write to your local mayor/borough president.
Nothing wonderfully amazing, but certainly helpful in spreading information and making things easier to access. I know, it seems so wrong for the government to do such things, but hey, it happens.
DMV is online for some things here in MA (Score:1)
At least here in Massachusetts you can renew online and you get a $5 discount to boot.
http://www.magnet.state.ma.us/rmv
Polling and democracy (Score:1)
The poll was taken down quite fast though, when some guy in the IT department found out that the majority of votes came from the mayors office.
It turned out that the mayor had personally spent an entire evening clicking the "Yes"-button over and over again (I think it was around 150 times or so).
The morale?
Indiana a good example (Score:1)
(Yes I say DMV even though it's called the BMV in Indiana. It's DMV where I'm from and BMV sounds stupid anyway)
Phone/Credit Card (Score:2)
In fact, for almost all of my bills (including taxes), I've been able to set up either automatic payments from my bank account or my visa. The Canadian gov has had direct deposit for tax returns and GST rebates for years as well so between all that the lines have been slain (for those who wanted them to be) for years before the web even became trendy.
The telephone system and credit cards are the real line slayers and have been around for a long time. Paying from a webpage is just a new variation.
Dana
Fines (Score:1)
just a quick cynical point... =)
--Remove SPAM from my address to mail me
Re:'lines' (Score:1)
especially since the development of viagra...
Re:Katz.. (Score:1)
Lines, college registration, and whatnot (Score:1)
Some lucky college students can skip once-dreaded queues by registering online.
Oh, those very lucky college students. I go to school at a small liberal arts university (shouldn't be too hard to figure out from the email address). I work in the tech dept. there, and I'm on the student government.
We don't have online registration, but it's been proposed. It's a bad idea. Here's why:
Right now, students register by getting to the Registrar's office at 9:00 AM on a specific day (one day for each year). Everybody actually gets there at 12 or 1 the night before and camps out. Why? To get into the really good classes ( or the bad ones like stats that everyone needs). It's first-come-first-serve, but if you really want a class, it's your initiative that gets you in.
The online systems that most schools use give everyone a random priority number. It takes away your power to be that guy who camps out to get into the class (or get those Star Wars tickets) before everyone else.
I'd rather deal with the line than not have control.
What the fuck is this rubbish about? (Score:1)
What on earth has this got to do with anything?
Lineless Shopping ala IBM (Score:2)
What I'm waiting for is where I can walk into a grocery store with a big trenchcoat lined with pockets and just stuff myself full of various food products like that guy does in the IBM commercial. (The only problem is frozen products, but then I'll probably get some insulated pockets or something.)
To pay all I have to do is walk through a metal-detector thingy that picks up all of the price codes for everything I bought and automatically charges me. Shopping is made so easy that the man even forgets to pick up his receipt. (In the commercial up to this point you think the shopper is really a shoplifter, and the guard says "Sir!! ...You forgot your receipt.")
--
Eric is chisled like a Greek Godess
So we just replicate the same bureaucracy online? (Score:1)
With a few exceptions, government web sites are as byzantine and difficult to navigate as a voicemail maze. Most of them look to be built with Front Page, many have 500K image files, and the forms are only slightly easier to deal with than the paper ones.
So while it will be less time-consuming to deal with govt stuff online, it will probably still be just as frustrating relative to dealing with the private sector online.
Swedish Meatballs (Score:1)
Here in Sweden we have one government agency who has fully adapted to the World Wide Web experience. The RSV (Riksskatteverket), the Swedish Tax Service. You can log on to their site and download tax forms and brochures in PDF format. Often you can fill these forms out inside Acrobat Reader and print them. Then it is a simple matter to sign them and send them by snailmail to the RSV (sorry, there is no elecronic signature service yet, but I bet that will be implemented soon too).
You can even go through a fully on-line tax-calculation form, which calculates how much tax you owe. Brilliant (though rather discouraging)!
In fact, a lot of government agencies in Sweden have adapted to the Internet. You can check your student loan at the CSN (Centrala Studiestöds Nämnden), send for applications and so forth.
If nothing else, this shows that these "lines" as is mensioned in the article, can indeed be reduced, and that there really is no reason not to. It takes a lot of work initially, I bet, but saves it for both people in general and the government in the long run.
Random babbling from Jon Katz (Score:1)
To the score or so of counterexamples which have already been posted, I'll add the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles. I renewed my license plate online this year, and the sticker arrived in the mail a mere two days later.
The lack of research here is very sloppy, but sadly typical of Katz.
Class registration (Score:1)
It didn't make it any easier. I was still looking at huge printouts from dot matrix printers on the wall in one of the buildings. I still had to go to the registrar's office and wait in line to use a 1980-era terminal to HOPEFULLY get the classes I wanted.
Their slogan should of "now make class registration a pain in the ass, ONLINE!". Maybe me getting kicked out of the U for a bad semester was a good thing to me.
Re:Not going to happen (Score:2)
Banks? Not yet. (Score:2)
According to this FDIC [fdic.gov] site, the number bank branches increased faster than the population in 1999. So there isn't any evidence that the Internet is killing off visiting banks in person (yet).
British Local Government Example... (Score:1)
Here's a link to my local government website:
HantsNet [hantsnet.gov.uk] - Hampshire County Council UK
Apparently Bill Gates the Antichrist has praised it as a shining example to governments everywhere...
...Yeeuck!
But joking apart, at least the poor dears are attempting something has been useful. Maybe they ought to get it in a better organised format
Not mentioned (Score:1)
Re:Lines, college registration, and whatnot (Score:2)
It did help to register as close to the beginning of your allocated time slot as possible. However, I believe this was a fair system that also obviated the need to hike all the way across campus to stand in line and fill out bubble-sheets for registration. You can now register by touch-tone phone or the web.
Re:Uhh (Score:2)
Security vs. efficiency or ease of use. (Score:1)
Re:Geek profiling lull? (Score:2)
As an example, it is local government that is trying to eliminate lines at toll booths via EZ Pass and its ilk.
World War III Online (Score:5)
It really has eliminated much of the waiting and inconvenience we get with today's warfare, though it's not completey fair because the countries with broadband connections are winning almost every conflict.
Also, I've heard that Iraq is getting a reputation for just hiding out in one shadowy corner and blasting people as they go by.
The Digital Divide (Score:5)
It seems to me that the people who most need access to gov't services won't be any better served by this remedy. I mean, yes, it would be nice to renew your license online, but food stamps, welfare checks, etc.? Do we want to make it any more complicated or difficult or challenging for people to get to these services?
Let's face it: the digital revolution embraces those with the wealth and education to utilize it. Making these services electronic threatens to further cut off those at an economic and educational disadvantage.
Now, this shouldn't mean that we don't eventually do it. But let's make sure that people have universal access and training before we start making life more difficult for those who have enough problems already.
I think Chuck D. sums it up best : "There are gonna be a lot of people picking electronic cotton and digging digital ditches."
Best Comment here (Score:2)
Some people are pretending that downloading the Starr report and having to wait a few more minutes for it (during which time you can still put it in the background and work on something else) is the same thing as the hours of wait and pain you go through at a DMV. Get real. There truly is practically no wait (no more than it takes to download the product information and then make a decision and implement it... which all has to happen (slightly differently) when you are in line as well.)
Go to the DMV and tell me which soulless automatons you'd rather deal with.
-Ben
The Process Is The Punishment (Score:3)
One of the books we studied was The Process Is The Punishment. One of its central tenets is, when you get down to it, the bureaucracy isn't accidental or undesired. It's part of the process of criminal law, meant to break down and assault those caught in its maw.
The lines that Katz complains about aren't just there accidentally. They enforce discipline, respect, and fear. Fear of a wasted day, fear of an inexplicable fine, fear of a missing sheet of paper.
If you never had to wait in line, maybe you'd never realize there was a government out there who could do much, much worse to you if you didn't pay your taxes.
Think of DMV as the PR branch for the IRS.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
Re:Lines, college registration, and whatnot (Score:2)
A more fair use would be to have a clear and public point system, including granting seniors more points, etc., so that those who have invested the most time in the school have preference.
Re:I've been to hell, I spell it DMV (Score:2)
And considering that your license in Arizona doesn't expire until you're 60 makes for far less people at the DMV.
When I first got a license (way back in '84), I stood in line for several hours. When I went to get a new one 2 years ago, there were 3 people there.
Re:Huh. VA seems to be doing a decent job, at the (Score:2)
Most impressive, though, is that I was able to get a new license with my new address on it online. Since moving to the credit card style IDs they save your picture and therefore I just logged on, paid $6 and two days later got a new license with a new address, no lines.
My only arguement was that it actually cost $2 more than if I had gone down to MVD and waited in line. The extra $2 was worth it, but I disagree with companies charging me a fee to make their work easier. (I didn't require the time of a "teller" and they can presumably do these online IDs during "slow periods" when a person might otherwise be idle, if that ever happens at the MVD.)
MacSlash: News for Mac Geeks [macslash.com]
Yeah, lots of lines can be eliminated! (Score:3)
www.dot.[yourstate].us
[YourState] Department of Transportation
Please fill out this form completely and accurately. At a four-way stop, with three people arriving at the same time, who has the right of way? Have you ever had an accident? Stand across the room, and read the fifth line of letters. Did you get them right? Do you want to be an organ donor? Click here, and your driver's license will be mailed to you.
www.hud.[yourstate].us
[YourState] Department of Housing and Urban Development
To qualify for housing subsidies, you must demonstrate that your income and/or education is lower than established poverty guidelines. Click one:
( ) I am using hotmail to save money on email services.
( ) I'm at a library kiosk, since I can't afford my own computer.
(*) Kiosk, what's a kiosk?
www.usps.gov
United States Post Office
Weigh your package on a scale, such as your bathroom scale. Press here to print airmail postage. Press here to digitize your package. Press here to certify that your package is not illegal contraband, including explosives, weaponry, narcotics, nuclear secrets or crptography source code. Press here to FTP: your package to Honduras.
www.hhs.gov
Department of Health and Human Services
The Center for Disease Control and the Department of Health and Human Services are cooperating to reduce influenza in the community. Click here for a flu shot.
(end of giggle) I'm not a Luddite, and I hope that technology can be used to overcome as many issues as possible. However, our government is BY the PEOPLE, FOR the PEOPLE, and most of the people who end up in government lines are not savvy or interested in using computers.
We're elitist if we forget about "the lower half" of humanity, or even if we think of the computer have-nots as "the lower half."
But there's a price... (Score:2)
Once again, the few would spoil it for the rest of us. Technology will have to get a lot better to make a "no line society" a reality.
I'm not complaining (Score:2)
Take a look at your state's Web site at http://www.state.XX.us/ where XX is your state abbreviation, such as Arizona [state.az.us] or Oregon [state.or.us] or Michigan [state.mi.us].
--
Convience, The Line and Privacy (Score:5)
One of things that keeps government from being a total pain in the butt is that it's currently a lot of work to come and physically touch you.
That is, in order for someone in the gov't. to interact with you, they have to get physical somewhere along the line. Because of this, you have some slack. Slack is basically the ability to exist in a world of your own choosing, to some extent. You can go about your business relatively untouched.
This isn't a license to pirate warez, or to cause other people grief, but being able to treat interaction with your government as a minor concern. Because of this, the government and the citizen have a relationship, but the average citizen can choose to be at arm's length or locked in a bear hug.
When we eliminate the distance by choosing to interface with the government in electronic form, we give up that buffer. In other words, there is no longer any obstacle to directly debiting your bank account for whatever amount the government (state, city, federal) decides you owe them.
I can hardly wait. And it gets better - currently, many states revoke the drivers licenses of certain individuals for somewhat serious offences - failure to pay child support, DUI, etc.
This is essentially a way to selectively invoke police harassment, which isn't nesc. evil - but what about a future where your license is suspended because you didn't pay some tax or someone keyed in a SSN that matched yours when her finger slipped?
Maintaining inefficiencies is not always a bad idea - especially when you're not interested in becoming a well oiled cog. Separation between state and government agencies will soon start to evaporate, and it will become very easy to mess with people simply because some department head decides that power is a cool toy.
Re:The Digital Divide (Score:2)
As someone having far too many dealings with govt (Score:2)
A few forward thinking companies actually let me make the change online (though they did require 128 bit encryption and a password, there are still security issues). On the other hand, I have spent more time on the phone, and standing in line, getting this taken care of than I care to think about.
If I were able to do this on-line, I would have been able to do this in an afternoon, queue jumping or no. As it is, I am hopeful I'll have everything squared away under the new name by the end of the summer. I'm not holding my breath though.
Re:Again, JonKatz gets it but doesn't. (Score:2)
Regarding the "lower transparency" of online govt., how is there more transparency in submitting a paper form to some nameless clerk who goes away and does something with it where I can't see them, compared to submitting a webform to a server that then does some processing on it where I also can't see it?
-----------------------------------------------
The Daily Me [dailyme.org]
- All your favourite websites with a single click.
-----------------------------------------------
Re:from the what-about-security? dept. (Score:2)
Re:Brian Carnell (Score:2)
Re:The Digital Divide (Score:3)
I live down the road from 'subsidized housing'. Other appropriate names would be the projects or slum. Take your pick. It doesn't matter. The long and short of it is that these are apartments for people who don't make enough to pay the market value of a place to live, so we all chip in to help them out. The place is deplorable, with broken/missing shutters and even siding falling off the building. From the outside the place looks as if it should be condemned.
I would really feel sorry for the people to had to live there except...
-next to nearly every broken shutter is a 18" digital satellite dish.
-nearly every other window has an air-conditioning unit in it
I grew up without AC, and the broken TV sets we had were lucky to ever pick up 3 channels. I now program computers for a living. The truth of the matter is that anyone who wants a computer and internet access can get it for less than the cost of basic DSS service.
Digital divide? Where?
Government is not business (Score:2)
- In e-commerce, the cost of providing services electronically is defrayed by (presumably) increased amount of business. In government, the cost is borne by the taxpayer. The political will to bear that increased cost isn't yet present.
- A business can de-emphasize its brick-and-morter component (if any) as e-business swells. Government is constrained to serve all citizens equally. It simply can't get rid of the old-fashioned way of doing things -- not yet.
- Many government processes legally require some form of identification (photo) or signature that can't legally be done electronically. (However, the legalizat ion of electronic signatures [cnn.com] should accelerate putting such processes online.)
It's always fun to insult goverment and government workers. But often, as with Katz' polemic, the insults are based on a total lack of understanding of the unique mission and requirements of government. Repeat after me: Government is not business.Re:Lines, college registration, and whatnot (Score:2)
Some time during the late 90s, they instituted on-line registration, which had registration windows exactly like the dial up reigstration. Only without the hassle of busy signals.
The only real difference between lining up and waiting at the registrar's office and the telephonic registration system is that you got to wait in the comfort of your dorm room/apartment rather than long uncomfortable lines with no access to restrooms!
Eric
Re:The Process Is The Punishment (Score:2)
Amen. There are other reasons why the Good Things Katz suggests will never happen:
Big ships turn slow (Score:2)
Just look at the obstacles that 'crats face.
1)Taxpayers scream if $1 is paid for a coax terminator without 5 different sources being allowed to bid on it.
2)If any special interest group feels that it doesn't get as much advantage as every other it howls (Note: this doesn't mean the said group is hurt, just that it doesn't get as much advantage as all the rest)
3)No one thanks you for improving their life.
4)Everyone blames you if you screw up.
So I'm a bureaucrat. I have bosses (elected officials) who change every few years, and who constantly proclaim that they will 'do things different' in order to appease voters. I will be blaimed for every problem, whether I'm responsible or not, for trying to implement a constantly shifting process voted on by people who have no idea how the process works. I will be blamed for all problems (did I mention that I will be blamed for all problems).
Do I:
A) Step out and try some untested technology that will improve the lives of my customers?
B) Keep quiet with my head down and wait for the next boss with his 'different' way?
We're working on it... (Score:2)
You have to remember that most things of this sort that you have to deal with are at the local government level. And there are many other issues that have to take precedence.
Like working water/sewer systems that don't overflow into rivers during major storms. Streets that don't tear up cars. Schools and libraries. Fire trucks that aren't on their last legs. And so on. Many places have a hard enough time budget-wise keeping up with these things. Making improvements is slow. It's hard to justify major investments in computer systems (let alone keeping up the ones already there) if they will cut into any of those type of things.
The other thing is people to do it. In most places the payscale for experienced IT persons to put this stuff together doesn't compare at all to the current market. Sometimes the pay can be literally almost half of what one can get working elsewhere.
It's hard to find people willing to take that much of a cut to try to make a difference in their local community. But some do it. (There are decent benefits, and good job security. But making half of what your compadres/buddies does kind of bite sometimes.) Please keep that in mind when complaining about lack of high-speed new-age services.
Some of us would like to do that. And will, eventually. (Free OS's on commodity hardware help.
But it's not on the top of most people's priority list's. I just saw the results of a public opinion survey this morning, so I'm not just talking about the politicians. (Who often are not much help where the wheel meets the road, either.)
Unless of course, you want to help. How about some hardware? Some volunteered time and expertise? That might be welcomed more readily than you might think. (Please - no political strings attached. Most of us actually doing the work don't care about that, and don't want to. We just fix things, and try to keep our feet away from the muck as much as possible.)
Anyway... enough of my little rant. Touched a nerve, I guess.
Re:Again, JonKatz gets it but doesn't. (Score:2)
Now about transparency: The transparency is in the queuing process itself and I obviously cannot pass any judgement about what happens after that. That depends on the type of government service you are queuing for. If you want to pay for some license, the only issue is how long you have to wait. But what about say, government auctions of state-land? which might very well be first-come-first-served! That is a good and fine principle as long as the queueing process is open and other people can see that they are being treated fairly. If there isn't, people will complain, sooner or later.
Re:The Digital Divide (Score:2)
But the whole point is moot. The point is: at this point in time, is it fair to make and expect people to purchase PC's and maintain internet access to access gov't services. It just doesn't seem fair to tell the US that you all have to have access to a computer, or you don't get served. Live in a remote area? Computer too expensive? Not computer literate? Too bad, you don't get access, all in the name of technology.
Wimp! (Score:2)
Comeon, you're a grown-up boy, aren't you? Grown-up boys don't cry, eh? It's just a little pinprick, anyway.
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Here's my mirror [respublica.fr]
Re:Lineless Shopping ala IBM (Score:2)
Some french supermarkets have experimented with a caddy-mounted barcode scanner, which adds to the tab whatever you put in the cart and also subtracts whatever you take-out from it. When you pass at the cash, you merely pay the indicated price.
Dunno if the experiment was wildly successful beyond hopes, though...
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Here's my mirror [respublica.fr]
Re:The Process Is The Punishment (Score:2)
Interesting. I hang around some european diplomats, and they thus have tax-free status. This means that they have their sales tax refunded monthly. So, I asked one of them to buy an expensive item for me, to save the tax, and he said that I should'nt do that, because the civil servants here are much nicer than in [Europe] : " I once incorrecty filled a tax form, and the lady [not in Europe] at the counter nicely explained to me my mistake, and even filled the form for me and checked all the papers. In [Europe], I would have had a fine and would have to go to three different other queues, so I don't think it's fair to cheat the tax people here ".
I bought my expensive item myself, and was happy to pay the tax.
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Here's my mirror [respublica.fr]
Re:The Process Is The Punishment (Score:2)
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Here's my mirror [respublica.fr]
Re:Convience, The Line and Privacy (Score:2)
What's the difference between that, and retail stores THAT DEMAND that you leave your bags at the cash register, because they THINK that you MAY rob them????
When some storeowner pulls that stunt on me, I shout loudly in the store that I will not do business with people who automatically assume that I will rob them.
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Here's my mirror [respublica.fr]
Re:The Digital Divide (Score:2)
My point was not whether governments should do business online, or whether poor people should have cable TV.
My point was that the digital divide does not exist. Poor people who can afford cable TV can afford net access. Arguing that the government shouldn't modernize because some choose to spend their money in a manner that locks them out is ridiculous. Arguing that taxpayers should subsidize others bad financial choices is equally ridiculous.
Not having access to the net is not a choice. Buying cable instead of net access is. Don't ask for me to pay for one when you choose the other.
Re:ATZ! (Score:2)
Oay, now I'm off to finish Gees, my favorite boo by Jon atz.
Encryption vs. morality... (Score:3)
I'm not sure what keysize is legal now with the new export laws. But I THINK Netscape's up to 128 bit SSL now. Yeah, that's still not too great. But consider...
One crooked government employee (oh, but would anyone immoral EVER work for the government??? Who's heard of such a thing?) can most likely harvest more SSNs than a script kiddie with a packet sniffer and a brute force keygen can crack.
Likewise, one person with a photographic memory walking through a mall one day can most likely harvest more credit card numbers than a script kiddie with a packet sniffer and a brute force keygen can crack.
Or forget photographic memories. How about one immoral waiter with a pen and paper? You *DO* follow them to the credit card machine and watch to make sure they don't write down your number whenever you pay with your visa... don't you? I didn't think so. And even if YOU do, do you think the AVERAGE person does?
Or one disturbed postal worker who wants to get his hands on checking account numbers and routing codes... Most people *DO* still pay their bills via check through the USPS.
Now, don't get me wrong, strong crypto is undeniably a GOOD THING(tm). But it's not a panacea.
And while 40bit or 128bit browser crypto may be trivial for the NSA or most corperations, or even for schools with their beowulf networks...
It's NOT trivial for joe 5kr19t k1dd13 who wants 2 g3t some w1k3d kardz and phuck 5h1t up. He's far more likely to get kardz by calling up his friend who's a waiter at Steak N Shake than by kracking them.
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
The Digital Divide (Score:2)
Hey, what if your computer completely breaks down and you need to get your license renewed today? Too bad, we cut service to the walk-in DMV 'cause we want people filling in the forms on-line. Your nearest office is 50 miles away and is only open from 11 to 2 Tuesday through Thursday...
Even up here in Canada there are government documents that used to be available for free or close to it from a walk-in office, which are now only available as electronic documents for ludicrous fees that only corporations can afford (e.g. detailed topographical maps of B.C., Statistics Canada surveys) But hey, you don't have to wait in line for them anymore!
TV's are nowhere near as difficult to learn to operate as a computer, and they're on the order of ten times cheaper, too.
Besides, just because you managed to work your way out of childhood poverty (walking uphill both ways in a snowstorm every day etc. etc.) doesn't mean that anyone who hasn't managed to is an unworthy slack-ass. Besides, there may even be people poorer than you neighbors. Maybe they are those $50k/yr Silly Vally homeless we heard about earlier :)
Re:E-commerce and fads (Score:3)
Yes. The pixies from the magic fairyland should pay for installing those machines and paying the insurance, maintenence, and infrastructure costs. They can use the resources from the money trees to pay for them.
One city in California (I think it was SD) had an ordinance imposed on them: They could not charge ATM fees to military personnel from the nearby base. Guess what? Lots of the machines were pulled out. Turns out that a lot of those machines were put there to make money off the fees. Tell them they can't charge, and they have no reason to keep it there. It's called economics... all price controls create shortages.
If you want an ATM on every corner, you have to let somebody make a buck off putting one there. If you want no-fee ATM banking, then walk your lazy butt to a machine from your bank. (If you pass a "no fees - ever" law, they will just charge your bank for the transaction, and the bank will make up for it by offering you a lower interest rate. There's no such thing as a free lunch... or a free cash machine.)
Re:Neo-Luddites and Godwin's Law (Score:3)
Labelling others may be an overused rhetorical tool, but sometimes it's valid. You don't always automatically lose the argument just because you call somebody a Luddite, Communist, Isolationist, Zealot, or even Katz's favorite, "Corporatist". Sometimes the label fits.
For that matter, it's about time that we dump that law outright... For example, it's okay to call some of Pat Buchannan supporters "Nazis". They are Nazis. Some of them come right out and call themselves Nazis.
Also, when P.J. O'Rourke coined the term "Safty Nazis", in reference to people who seek to protect us from ourselves, he had a good point.
Re:Lines, college registration, and whatnot (Score:2)
I just don't think that "camping out" counts as a valid reason for preference.
Re:Line length is not really a problem (Score:2)
As far as current politics goes, you should read about Echelon, about the European privacy law vs. things like TrustE and Safe Harbor, about DMCA, about UCITA, about Software Patents and a few other things happening around you.
© Copyright 2000 Kristian Köhntopp
This can be a recipe for disaster as well . . . (Score:2)
It's probably also bad government.
Government documents are fundamentally different. They grant rights and powers well beyond the scope of executing agreements. Fraud in a contract may make a contract unenforceable, fraud before the government is a crime which can yield the loss of life and liberty for an extended period of time.
Sure, voting encrypted and authenticated via digital signature seems attractive -- it is also an invitation for all forms of fraud, even presuming the technology is unbreakable. It is for this reason and others that government does many things in person -- even if only to assure jurisdiction over the body of the actor.
For all the reasons traditionally crowed about by technoanarachists on slashdot as to why the net is a fundamentally non-terrestrial zone beyond the jurisdiction of all -- it seems to me a terrible idea to start getting fluffy with these other things.
Oh, and by the way. A vast amount of real-world authentication is predicated on the pain-in-the-but (whether real or fictitious) process needed to get "official" documents. If driver's licenses could be obtained by web pages and web-cams, no one else would rely on the same.
The trust process that derives from these "seminal" sources of identification is, of course, a fiction. But it is also one that tends to keep honest people honest -- so businesses and banks tend to rely on driver's licenses, birth certificates and passports. Imagine how the loss of fundamental authentication would deprive other, more informal forms of authentication of their (pseudo)legitimacy.
Nah, make me wait in line. Bust me if you catch me lying on the government document. Some things just need to be done the hard way.
Re:E-commerce and fads (Score:2)
For the cash machine just inside the door of the bank, that is true... but when you use a third-party ATM at the Kwik-E-Mart they are forced to pay for that service, and they are pass that cost on to you. If you don't like it, don't use the third-party machine and walk to your bank, where the better ones charge nothing to their customers who use their machine.
You go to the ATM, you pay a fee. Stand in line for a teller inside, and... you still get hit with a fee. Now given that the bank exists because they're making a profit off the money I deposit with them, where do they get off charging me to get access to my money?
Nobody is forcing you to bank with people like that. Feel free to put all your money in a bank that hides the cost of service from you by simply offering a lower interest rate. People who never use bank tellers might prefer to be charged on a per-visit basis and get the better rate.
One way or another, if you want the service you will end up paying for it.
Re:Neo-Luddites and Godwin's Law (Score:2)
That is no longer the only proper application of the term Luddite. From Webster:
Luddite
Pronunciation: 'l&-"dIt
Function: noun
Etymology: perhaps from Ned Ludd, 18th century Leicestershire workman who destroyed machinery
Date: 1811 : one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving machinery as a protest; broadly : one who is opposed to especially technological change
(bold added by me)
Fine... Grimmer's Extention of Godwin's Law: In any on-line debade, anybody who labels the opposition in a jingoistic manner (such as calling them a "Nazi") automatically loses the debate unless somebody claims victory by citing Godwin's Law with equal thoughtlessness.
Re:Encryption vs. morality... (Score:2)
>a bureaucrat
Well, the government is notorious for buing filled with dishonest people. But incompetence is just as good as dishonesty sometimes. Or, in the case of the postal service, rampant mental instability and pure psychosis is more scary than simple dishonesty.
>or waiter is far less likely to
>commit a felony than some dumb kid with nothing
>to lose and no idea how much trouble he could
>get into.
Uh, just who do you think makes a profession out of the "food service industry" anyway? It's not exactly something that takes a university education. Sure, you've got some college kids picking up a little extra cash in there... at least in college towns you do. But just who takes the waiter jobs where there are no colleges? Mental burnouts who are unqualified for any more challanging employment elsewhere. We're not exactly talking about brainiacs here.
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Oh, then lemme guess... (Score:2)
You learned everything *YOU* know about encryption from reading Cryptonomicon eh?
Yeah, I know that every bit you add to keylength doubles the number of possibilities, and thus, the brute force time. In fact, EVERYBODY knows it. It's freshman stuff... those powers of two, ya know?
But considering that the PGP key length necessary for secure email is 4096 bits, I'd say that, yeah, 128 bit keys still suck.
So take your holier than thou attitude and stick it up your ass, fucker.
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
massive marketing (Score:2)
Blaming the victims of marketing and consumerism for their poor choices is adding insult to injury. We know marketing works, so if you permit it to occur without constraints, people will make poor choices. If you want to get people to make good economic choices, all you need to do is to change the messages they see in the media.
Hanlon's Razor applies. (Score:2)
What you ascribe to deliberate malice here is more plausibly explained by selfishness and laziness.
There is no incentive for the government to make their bureaucracy more pleasant than necessary for people, so they don't. There are local management pressures to increase headcount and budget. So the departments become more bloated, as other posters have pointed out. The people working in the department have no desire to actually deal with the "customers", so they don't go out of their way to do anything that would encourage them to come back.
Nice, neat, and no oppressive conspiracy required.