Happy Independence Day, Jose 655
Now and then, even among the cowed, comfortable and generally unconscious citizens of the Corporate Republic, a hero arises. On this July Fourth, let's award the Slashdot Order of the Penguin to one Jose Bove, whose international crusade began last year in protest against U.S. duties on Roquefort cheese.
Bove, a French farmer and union leader, may seem like an unlikely figurehead for the emerging political struggle of the 21st Century. Even though he isn't an American citizen, he's got a pretty good grip on what used to be considered American values, and is thus an Independence Day icon for the increasingly-resented United States, the Corporate Republic's world headquarters. The United States is now a place where a robust economy, conformity and market research are national religions, and a nation where kids who dissent and act strangely are routinely tossed out of school or thrown in jail.
Bove spent a week in jail last year for his assaults on a McDonald's under construction in his hometown of Milau (he faces up to five years in prison). For obvious reasons, McDonald's has become an international symbol for the globalization, mass-marketing and homogenization that U.S.-bred corporatism is spreading like the measles. Now Bove is drawing an odd agglomeration of supporters worldwide as he stands trial. His day in court is drawing thousands of anti-globalization protesters, environmentalists, trade unionists, students and other campaigners cramming into Milau, a small market town in southern France.
"This is not just about food," Bove told the demonstrators. "It is about the struggle of small people, leading simple lives, to free themselves from the dictatorship of the multi-nationals."
Bove's particular issue is what he calls the industrialization of agriculture. He could just as easily be talking about the industrialization of education, technology, law, medicine or work. He's dubbed his town "Seattle-on-the-Tarn," a reference to the local river and to the protests he joined during the World Trade Organization's Seattle summit last year.
The struggle of small people to free themselves from the multi-nationals has a lot to do both with technology and independence. From market monopolies like Microsoft to giant entertainment conglomerates like AOL-Time/Warner that will seek to dominate information and its distribution to corporatist invaders of privacy, the struggles of small people will increasingly resonate around the world. And this is all before the rise of the gathering bio-tech conglomerates, soon to dominate genetic research and try to use the Human Genome Project to mass market the perfect human, all the while screening their work behind talk of cancer and aging cures.
Corporatism threatens to overwhelm individuals all over the world, from cheese farmers to outspoken employees to bright and idiosyncratic students -- its virtues are promoting conformity, corrupting the political system, suppressing dissent and creativity. Its primary target is individualism, its primary enemy individualists -- which means hackers, programming entrpeneurs, renegade teachers, small businessmen and farmers like Bove, odd-ball filmmakers. Bove has put the struggle as eloquently as anybody could.
So have his supporters, carrying signs through the streets announcing "The World Is Not For Sale." This message stings in the United States on Independence Day. What in this country isn't for sale?
It's strange to be watching this odd drama in another country, when the issue itself is so American. Perhaps Bove will sail over here when AOL/Time-Warner opens its first franchise office in the United States and give us all an example to live by.
Happy Independence Day, Jose.
Retraction of 'bomb charge' and explanation. (Score:4)
I did not set out to malign him. I simply found that Katz' article didn't tell me anything about the person he was applauding. Hence the title and initially biographical tone of my post. I simply wanted facts. After over an hour of reading French/US articles, and getting contradictory impressions, I stumbled into some shocking (seeming) facts, which seemed too noteworthy to ignore.
In the days after the April terrorist attack, Le Monde and several other media reported that "Jose Bove is being questioned by the authorities" -- but there were no corresponding headlines saying "Jose Bove seems to be cleared". Also search engines can lag 1-2 months behind content, so the few exculpatory 'minor articles' in May/June were not fully indexed
I feel paticularly embarrassed because I had a friend who was in a similar situation many years ago. I first saw it on a front page headline "Prominent Senate Intelligence [sic] aide caught with a kilo of heroine!" That was the afternoon edition, just hours after the arrest, but he was already cleared before the papers hit the street (the drugs were from a vengeful ex with whom he was 'planning a future' until he learned she was involved with drugs. They verified this with her supplier and ID'ed the anonymous tip) His arrest got headlines or was cited on the front page of many major national papers, but Follow-ups tended to get a few column-inches on page 36... eventually, if ever. That's how the media work -- and the ranking system of search engines (as well as the indexing delay) will only make this problem worse in the future -- A word to the wise.
After reading the facts presented by the other posters, I reviewed the source material for my post, and found that other statements that I relied upon may have been media sensationalism as well. Yhese had made me very skeptical of his claims of nonviolence, but after examining those incidents in some detail (which is why it's taken me so long to repond) I now have a great deal more respect for Mssr. Bove's methods, even if I do not necessasrily agree with his politics.
I apologize for my error, and especially for emphasizing it in my earlier post. I let my shock get the better of me, and in that I am no better than the media I criticize.
I realize that public retractions seem to be unpopular on Slashdot, but I think it's only right
Re:Real Protest. Anti American? (Score:2)
Is "brainwashing" too strong a term here?
Why are so many foreigners "anti-American"? Answer - they're not - they actually have genuine three-dimensional motives with reasons, but rather than listen, acknowledge or or face up to these things, a lot of people find it far easier to dismiss them and pretend they don't exist. Just like the homeless "have only themselves to blame" - the belief allows one to feel morally sound in ignoring their situation.
Like the sane man committed to an asylum from which he will never escape because his pleas of sanity are met with unthinking "of course dear, now take your pills and settle down", the use of "anti-american" to deprive people of a voice for a legitimate grievance (which usually has little or nothing to do with nationalities) is a disgusting dismissal of intellect and justice.
During the cold war, people worried about "sleepers" - US citizens whom the Commies had brainwashed to turn into enemy agents upon hearing a code phrase (from an anonymous telephone caller for example). Ironically, this is not far from the truth. If someone campaigns to change a particular US policy after bearing the brunt of its shortfalls, all it takes is one presenter on CNN to say the magic code-word "anti-American" and the minds of the nation snap closed without question or reason.
That's an impressively engineered populace, albeit one prone to overlooking certain designated injustices.
Back to the case in point. By the largely capitalist ideals of the USA, the consumer should be free to know what they are buying and free to choose to whether to buy it. A European study linking growth hormone beef with cancer might be controversial, and might not be believed by those in the USA (though critics in turn would partly attribute this to the extensive marketing in the USA), but the consumer has to right choose to eat or choose not to eat growth hormone beef, be it out of health concerns, or ethical concern, or whatever. Yet beef exporters attempted to deny this right. They were curtly informed that they must fully disclose the information about their product if they were to sell it. The USA goverment responded with 100% tarrifs on unrelated French goods. When someone's livelyhood goes down the drain because of retribution/punitive measures (depending where you stand) for something entirely unrelated to that person, someone who has does nothing to deserve such discrimination except happen to be of French nationality, then regardless of where you stand on the issue of beef, I think you have to acknowledge that an innocent has been wronged. Even if you think the beef exporters are the primary victims, this does not lessen the further injustice.
To presume reasoning like "anti-Americanism" is as silly as discussing it in terms of "anti-Frenchism".
Do the world a favour - next time you hear of someone doing something because they are "anti-American", take the time to find out why they are _really_ doing it (and for that matter, what it is they are _actually_ doing and want, not what is claimed of them). Depending on the case, you might find this very difficult - like I said, the code-word "anti-Americanism" switches off a huge proportion of the minds of the nation, and might be the only "information" about the case that is easily acessible from within the USA.
Or you can just keep believing that people are strangly jealous of the USA for some reason, that they spontaniously resent it without reason (perhaps because it's big, wealthy or powerful?), or whatever the twisted reasoning it is that means "He doesn't like us, but we can disregard that because people are just like that and never have a reason worthy of contemplation".
"Anti-Americanism" is almost always a crock.
And it is self perpetuating, for when someone tries to voice their grievance, and an entire nation treats them like an enemy in response (once the "anti-American" card has been played), it is only natural for them to respond the same way, and thus produce someone who genuinely is "anti-american".
Here a are some real facts on J. Bove (Score:2)
Who is Jose Bove? He's a Roquefort (a kind of cheese) producer and a union leader who emerged as quite a popular figure thanks to his fight against the dangers coming from the industrialization of food production and, more generally, against the economy-driven globalization.
What did he do? He and ten other unionists dismantled a Mac Donald's restaurant that was being built in his hometown of Millau. There was no damage done to anyone during this action.
And more importantly, why did they do it? After France refusing to import steroid containing beef from the USA, the USA answered by increasing taxes on some French products, including Roquefort cheese. Bove, as a Roquefort producer, suffered directly from this tax increase, but discovered that there wasn't anyone, politician or institution, he could appeal to as it all occurred within the frame of the GATT. Because of this, he resorted to vandalism against what is seen (in France) as the symbol of the american presence in: Mc Donald's.
So, the questions raised by Bove's actions are those of the lack of power of governments in front of global institutions as the WTO and the growing influence of transnational corporations on our societies. They have nothing to do with anti-americanism or mindless violence.
As a sidenote, I happen to live near the place where the Mc Donald's bombing you're mentionning took place. The terrorists who led this attack belong to a local movement, called Armee Revolutionnaire Bretonne, which has no ties whatsoever with Bove's union. Please check your information before posting such accusations.
Re:McDonalds is good! (Score:2)
This was sarcasm, in case you don't understood it. You sing the corpo's advertising like all well-reeducated mooing mass member.
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What's funny is that in your zealotry you fail to notice that the post you reply to was intended as sarcasm as well. He's on your side.
"Moo", indeed.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
Don't MacDonalds buy food locally? (Score:2)
Re:Real Protest (Score:2)
I am sorry that you imagined some sort of slight against the French (or against goat farmers for that matter). I called Jose a "cranky French goat farmer" because that is what he apparently is. This is not a slight against the French. Heck, Americans have more than their share of crackpots as well. If you want to feel slighted because you agree with Jose's attack on McDonald's then go ahead and feel insulted. As far as I am concerned anyone who thinks that Jose is some sort of freedom fighter is clearly an idiot.
Seriously, how cracked do you have to be to vandalize a McDonald's because the U.S. has closed its borders to your cheese. This is especially true if you happen to oppose globalization. It's wrong for Americans to try and sell hamburgers in France, but it is perfectly all right for the French to try and sell their Roquefort cheese here in the U.S. After all, French cheese is anti-globalist, pure, natural, healthy cheese.
Are you starting to see the reason why I have a hard time accepting Jose as something besides a crackpot? He isn't against globalization any more than I am. He wants to be free to sell his cheese for the highest prices possible, even if it means he has to ship his cheese clear to America to obtain those high prices. He doesn't want McDonald's, however, to have the same right to sell their hamburgers in France. Despite the fact that apparently McDonald's is fairly popular in France.
Don Quixote tilted windmills that he thought were giants. That did not make him a hero. Jose is a glory seeking cheese maker seeking to make his inane point through vandalism. He likewise is no hero.
Re:Not just Americans, rather, the world. (Score:2)
As for "never have the people in this country been more free," I must insist that you read McWilliam's book. The truth is that never have your people been LESS free. You just don't see it, because you've been sucked in by the myth.
Read the book. It'll make you discontented. And then maybe you'll get off your complacent duff and make some changes.
--
It's so short! (Score:2)
Is something wrong, Jon?
Drive through Macdonalds (Score:2)
regards, treefrog
Re:Wait a sec... (Score:2)
Actually...it's not surprising that the US is friendly to megacorps. In fact, it could be argued the entire US started as a megacorp...
The Virginia Company (of which many of the "patriots" of the American Revolution were stockholders, including Benjamin Franklin) wanted to do surveys of the land west of the Appalachians for land claims and settlement. The British, who had signed treaties with most of the Native American nations along the Appalachians (including the Cherokee, Creek and Delaware nations) to the effect that everything west of the Appalachian Mountains was "Indian Country" (a minor note--much of what was then Virginia (including Kentucke County, which eventually became Kentucky), was west of the mountains and about the only white folks living there at the time were refugees from the failed uprising of Bonnie Prince Charlie--bet you didn't know there were Scottish and Irish settlers in the early 1700's, eh?) said no because in large part they didn't want to piss off the Native American nations OR the French (many of the Nations had alliances with France).
In 1776, the Colonies declared independence. Literally almost one of the first acts the United States did as a nation was to sign a treaty with the Cherokee Nation ceding the biggest part of non-Jackson-Purchase Kentucky to the state of Virginia. Shortly thereafter Dan'l Boone and others came to take the lands and survey them (and ran promptly into the Shawano, who had not signed a treaty giving THEIR chunk of Kentucky over, but that's another story).
The treaty in question also ceded a fair chunk of the state of Tennessee; in fact, eastern Tennessee set itself up as the short-lived "State of Franklin" (not uncoincidentially named after one of the big stockholders in the Virginia Company--kinda like how Hudson Bay got named) for about a year and a half until the Articles of Confederation were superceded by the Constitution. (There are articles on this on the 'net, and on historical markers all through eastern Tennesseee--outside of Bristol there is actually a "historical community" set up as a reenactment of lifestyles around the time the State of Franklin existed.)
For that matter, literally until the Constitution was ratified, darn near all land west of the Appalachians was effectively owned by the Virginia Company. (After this, the US tended to take big chunks of land by buying them from other countries who never owned the land in the first place and setting them up as "territories". :)
Needless to say, at least some of us have been screwed by US-based megacorps since day 1 :P
Pinko slashdot readers, unite! (Score:2)
Many of you are proclaimed communists and socialists who continually complain about the so-called shortcomings of capitalism and individual freedom in America.
"America's bad." "Founding Fathers were all slaveowners and nothin's changed." "Capitalism makes everybody poor except for corporations." But then I realized that there's an elegant solution to your problems: China!
I have to admit that I'm somewhat envious. If there existed today a fully capitalist country anywhere in the world I would relocate there without hesitation. But alas, there are none, and here I remain.
But you, the socialists and communists who comprise the bulk of the Slashdot community, your Nirvana exists! I have read your posts and I hear you. I understand your desires and motivations. Utopia is within your reach, and it is: China!
Don't take my word for it. Read it straight from the PRC Constitution itself:
Preamble
After founding the People's Republic, China gradually achieved its transition from a New-Democratic to a socialist society. The socialist transformation of the private ownership of the means of production has been completed, the system of exploitation of man by man abolished and the socialist system established.
socialism, yeah!
Article 1
The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants.
The socialist system is the basic system of the People's Republic of China. Disruption of the socialist state by any organization or individual is prohibited.
wow!
Article 2
All power in the People's Republic of China belongs to the people.
the people, not the corporations!
Article 6
The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.
oh my God yeah!
You see, it's there, waiting for you. Think about it. No more posting messages about all the rich people who make you feel bad 'cause they own all that stuff. In China, nobody's rich! (Except for the bureaucrats, but no country's perfect.)
So to you, my Red Readers of Slashdot, I present my July 4th gift: China.
And in return, my only request is: PLEASE LEAVE
Re:Milau is a great little town (Score:2)
when mcdo will open a "restaurant" on the artic continent? or on the moon?
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When there are enough people in those places who want their product.
And when/if that happens, who are you or I to say to those people that our wishes override theirs?
If you don't like it, don't buy it. If the opening of McDonalds in a certain place isn't wanted by enough people, they'll close up shop. If not, you'll just have to live. The few cannot and should not override the many.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
Extremist, yes. Tyrant, hardly. (Score:2)
I've seen the fast food chains drive smaller restaurants out of business and replace originality with corporate uniformity. Corporate restuarants can afford to go with low profits and even huge losses as long as the shareholders and executive officers are willing to pour their huge amounts of capital into these restaurants. Smaller independants can't keep up, they don't have a rich uncle they can always hit up for cash.
Does this touch upon the 'let me eat crap and die painfully' argument, yes. Is this about local nationalistic pride, yes. Is this about laizze fair capitalism, yes. Are these things controversial? You bet, that's why we have a democratic ethic, the people who will be most affected by McD should be the one's rallying and making policy. Not the profit driven corporations and a handful of local beaurucrats.
Bove is an extremist, if he wasn't you'd never hear of him. Him and his pals did dismantle half of a McDonald's because they were pissed. I see this as a healthy display of civil-disobedience, its going to open a lot of eyes on both sides of the pond.
Just PR? (Score:2)
Learn more about Politics and Democracy. (Score:2)
1) You are free. See Cuba as a reference.
2) The freedoms that U.S. people don't have are the freedoms they gave conrol to under whichever representatives they vote for. It's not irreperable damage though. Note Al Gore's progress in the polls.
3) If you really want to see the Constitution and the Bill of Rights prevail, then quit attacking corporations, power mongers, and religious fanatics already and start voting for representatives who want a weaker central government, one that isn't so corruptible
Quites simply, on point #3, the governemnt shouldn't have anything to do with McDonalds or any other corporation. Who friggin cares if McD's are really really big. They also employ tons of people, virtually created fast food (which has saved my ass numerous times), and make good french fries. Are they evil? No. Hitler was evil. Stalin was Evil. Mr. McDonald just found a good way to make a profit in exchange for feeding tons of people who don't care to spend time in the kitchen. They are not breaking any laws, and will only show intrest in the government if the government suggests something stupid, like shutting them down or crippling their buisness, which seems fine to people like you.
Can anybody explain to me why liberals see the corporations as evil and big government as inherently good?
(Last time I asked that question here, people replied that the governemnt should be socially responsible for it's people, to which I replied that social responsibility shouldn't make up for personal irresponsibility. If anyone could go beyond this, please....)
The freedoms that we don't have are freedoms that the people of the United States gave up by electing the wrong people into office.
If you really want a real democracy, then I say vote for Republicans like I do. They support a small central government, which do not regulate your "evil" corporations as strongly as Democrats do on a federal level. They support local government power and control more than federal control. Not only does this mean a more well-balanced governement than the top-heavy one that's been growing in the last 8 years, but it also means that your vote means more. If you live in a state or county that is more liberal or more conserative than average, then they should live under their own set of rules (and see what results) instead of attempting to impose those ideas on the entire frikkin country.
If you don't want McDonalds, then see what your local government can do against it before forcing the federal government to do something.
Re:Real Protest (Score:2)
Bolverk dun said:
Considering the multinational who owned, spun off, and just recently rebought Nestle, you're honestly shocked at this?
(For those who don't know--Nestle was for some time, and is again now thanks to a reaquisition, a subsidiary of Phillip-Morris. Yup, the big cigarette company. One of those that laughably tried to claim that they didn't dope cigarettes with nicotine, even though literally anyone who works or has worked in a Phillip-Morris tobacco plant can tell you that there are certain tanks you Do Not Touch lest you be rushed straightaway to the hospital because aforementioned tanks sweat nicotine. (Yes, I've had family members who worked at Phillip-Morris, and one that had to sue for worker's comp due to their chopper damn near cleaving her hand into Marlboro additives. Let's just say I've a fair amount of knowledge on the subject.) They aren't exactly the most ethical of companies to begin with--getting people hooked on cigs, on formula, it's all money to them :P)
Do you know now ahh????? (Score:2)
THE IMPORT TAX IS ON BEEF - i.fucking.e. beef from France to the US
THE EXPORT TAX IS ON FRENCH DELICACIES - like Roquefort from the us to France.
anybody remember the banananas? the US wasn't happy that the UK put a tax on their bananas, so they put a prohibative tax on woolen jumpers, whisky etc from the UK.
The US bananas were from corporate owned farms, the ones before were from small farms.
Now: you want a banana, it's a Chiquita Banana.
The UK backed down, I'm glad someone didn't
Titus-G, celebrating the 4th of July, I don't want that guilt.
McWilliams died June 14th (Score:2)
He was awaiting sentencing for growing marijuana, which would have probably ended up at one of the medical marijuana clubs in California (it's illegal to sell it, but the state and the localities are happy to look the other way). The federal judge ordered weekly urine tests to make sure he wasn't using it, and a few days after a fire destroyed the computer that contained the only copy of his next book, he was found dead in his bathtub, having choked on his own vomit.
See www.forahero.com [forahero.com] for more info.
Re:Real Protest (Score:2)
Should I resort to violence and vandalism, or should I just force people to agree with my political agenda by convincing the government that "something must be done" (preferably, "for the children", "for the environment", or "for the poor").
Or maybe you should just go sit in your corner and pout, because freedom includes the freedom to open a restaurant, and the freedom to buy a right to use someone else's name for advertising, and the freedom to buy from people at a mutually agreeable price, and the freedom to hire people at a mutually agreeable wage, and the right to sell to people at a mutually agreeable price.
Or we could just have the government run everything, and those who were popular could have things their way, and everyone else would just be SOL. If you live in a democracy, the choice is (at least partially) yours.
--Kevin
Don't like working under a corporation? (Score:2)
Corporations need to answer to employees and customers just as much as anyone else. If not, they loose customers, market share, and stock value, then they go broke.
America needs more moronic pro-communism liberals like I need a hole in the head.
Oh really? (Score:2)
My earlier post, btw, was to point out the irony of complaining about the death of personal freedoms and democracy while attacking corporations and promoting regualtion. However, I must point out (just cuz I feel like it), that the federal government needs to fscking give up on enforcing anti-drug laws and simply pull all social responsibilty for individuals who partake in the use of illegal drugs. (BTW, they need to add drug testing to social welfare programs anyway.) If they want to fsck up thier lives, then the government shouldn't gaurantee a damn saftey net. That alone will reduce the number of welfare-mother crackwhores tenfold, and save millions of dollars put to use in trying to crack-down on drug activity and put it to more usefull causes, like teacher salaries
The analogy stands (Score:2)
The Amercian Revolution certainly wasn't just political, it was also economic. Corporations like Hudson Bay and East Indies had exculsive contracts with the Brit government and did their best, along with the Brits, to bleed the colonies dry. That was "legal" business. It was also crap. He isn't a hero he's just trying to raise awareness through civil-disobedience. I wouldn't praise legal business so much if I was you, once legal business was owning slaves and putting kids to work in factories.
Legal does not equal right. (Score:2)
BTW, its pretty childish to call people names like Doofus.
FYI: Article on Bove in Der Spiegel (Score:2)
Re:Learn more about Politics and Democracy. (Score:2)
Sure. Corporations are as capable -- on a theoretical standpoint -- of murder and enslavement as governments. In actuality, in the past century corporations have waged war (through proxy) and circumvented the constitutional amendments prohibiting slavery (the "company town").
What makes corporations more scary than governments (to liberals) is the idea that a democracy or republic gives you or I at least some input. No corporation need answer to anyone but those who can buy stock, and few are constituted to guarantee any kinds of liberties to their employees or clients.
So while any liberal will grant that governments have -- so far -- be the greater oppressors, they see how corporations could be much, much worse , left to their own devices.
Hope that helps!
----------------------------------------------
Re:Subsistence farming (Score:2)
Neither was the poor merchant whose tea was thrown in the harbor.
Re:You said it yourself in the first sentence, Jon (Score:2)
Ok, let me preface this statement: OUR society is not built upon anarchy.
What I'm trying to say is that there are rules that most of us abide by because it makes social interaction possible. Redefining these rules to suit your own world-view is frowned upon.
Anarchists will say destruction of corporate property is acceptable, because they stole it from the workers in the first place.
If this is the case, then what's to stop me from forming my own philosophy "Paulism", which advocates the elimination of the religious texts? I claim that reproducing the words of God is blasphemy. I claim that no human can claim to understand the infinite wisdom of God and that any attempt to capture this wisdom is folly. Not only folly, but a distortion.
Therefore, Paulism contends that marching into bookstores, motel rooms and private residences to destroy any religious writing is acceptable.
Would I get away with this? If you can, why can't I? Because "the man" is holding me down? No, I don't think you'd even need a any government laws or even any moderately religious individual for people to decide this is wrong.
It's just not done. Respect for the belongings of others is a fundamental tenet in modern society.
Summarily declaring that corporations are not entitled to "own" property is ridiculous. You're right, corporations are legal entities not people. However, there are people who voluntarily contribute their property to the corporation. One of the main reasons they do this is to protect against litigation - not to steal from workers. Are they no longer entitled to their work once it is "owned" by the corporation? Workers, too, are compensated for their work and a large number don't complain.
If you don't like corporations, don't work for one. There are many, many sole proprietorships or partnerships that offer employment. Equating these with corporations is not only wrong, but ignorant. The risk in running your own business is substantial. And I doubt very much if the anarchist protestors that frequent WTO meetings take the time to distinguish between a private business or a corporation.
You claim that I take a whole paragraph out of context and at the same time rationalize violent criminal activity with the writings of a pacifist 19th century French printer-(unwittingly)-turned-revolutionary.
--
Re:If you think corporations are dangerous... (Score:3)
Actually, a number of companies will mess with you whether you want them to or not. I'm a bit of an environmentalist and have seen records of a good bit of misbehavior by companies. Just check out the records on Superfund sites, particularly in Silicon Valley. There's a lot of things a company will do to screw with customers just to save a buck or two. Love Canal, the Ford Pinto, and the price squeezing behaviors of various monopolies like Standard Oil are all good historical examples of this.
I don't buy products from the paper mill in my hometown as far as I know, but the stench still comes to me whether I ask for it or not. Your argument is void.
And tell me who holds the gov't accountable for it's actions? More gov't. Isn't that convient...
The people affected by them, of course. Also, checks and balances come into play. Ultimately, in our society, the government is under much closer scrutiny than our businesses. Plus, if there are people abusing their position, they usually can't be in power for more than a few years and can be thrown out beforehand by a vote of the people.
Corporations only answer to their shareholders. It's easier to brush aside qualms about the company's questionable actions when it profits you or when you're kept ignorant of it. Government starts out with the goal of serving the people. Companies are just responsible for making money -- that's a lot less lofty height to fall from.
Sure, governments can do more to you and do it more directly, but there is more you can do in response. Try voting. It's an opportunity you don't get to take in the business world. "Voting with your dollars" is a misnomer. It implies your money is just as pure, free, and powerful as your vote at a poll booth. In reality, there'd be less people using Windows right now if that meant anything. I don't recall being forced to vote for someone I didn't like to get to vote for someone I did.
Anyway, why should you care if there is a McD's down the street anyway.
Oh, I don't... but I already said that if you were paying attention. I'm just pointing out that the original poster was foolish to think that not one guy not patroning their establishment made one whit of difference.
Re:Arrrgg! Sarcasm, people! (Score:2)
Advocacy is what is needed if you want to stop someone who you feel is oppressing you. IMO, though, their choice of a McDonalds was a bit screwy.
Re:Legal does not equal right. (Score:2)
Damn! (Score:2)
Re:Probably because Katz has gone insane (Score:2)
People bring this up a lot to show how "biggoted" early America was, but this was actually done to help bring about an end to slavery.
When the number of slaves was used in calculations of the population, the South looked extremely populous, which meant more Congressmen in the house of representatives. Since no slave was free to vote against the choices of his plantation owner, it basically meant that the slave-owning vote counted for more.
To put a stop to this, the census was changed so that only 3/5 of the slave population would count towards representation in Washington, which reduced southern influence in federal politics and eventually lead to more abolitionists in Congress and the success of Lincoln's bid for the Presidency.
WFIW, free black men who voted were counted as one vote, not 3/5 of a vote.
The French (Score:2)
Re:American violence (Score:2)
Signs that have bigger writing in English than French (in Quebec). Though as someone who is fully bilingual, it doesn't bother me any.
Conversely, America censors nudity like there's no tomorrow. We have a somewhat more European attitude towards it.
------
Re:Who is José Bové, and is he admirable? [Facts] (Score:2)
- Even though he lives in France, cheese farmer Jose Bove, on trial for trashing a McDonald's franchise...
- Even though he lives in France, professional political agitator Jose Bove, on trial for trashing a McDonald's franchise...
Now, tell me which one makes Bové sound like a hero. The man has devoted his life to bending the world to fit his own opinions, and has done a fair amount of damage in doing so.Interesting to me.. (Score:2)
It's strange to me that on this site, of all places, people have no real political consciousness of how big a threat to individualism corporatism is..and this on a website stuffed to the gills with individuals!
Re:American violence (Score:2)
Actually, the fact that Germany had lost so many planes in the Battle of Britain was only one factor in the indefinite postponement of "Operation Sea Lion," the planned invasion of Britain. The other was that Hitler had turned his attentions to an invasion of Russia, in part because he thought this would weaken Britain's position in the long run.[1] (Also, he was nuts enough to believe he could succeed at invading Russia where others had failed.)
And, while it's true that America did not intervene with direct military force until after the Pearl Harbor attack, America was supplying Britain with weapons and warships over a year earlier, through such expedients as the Lend-Lease program. Also, America was beginning to build up its military forces in the fall of 1940, and President Roosevelt had ordered investigations into the possibility of developing atomic weapons (preliminaries to the Manhattan Project) a year earlier than that.[2] It seems likely that somebody figured that the U.S. would be in the war at some point...
Eric
[1] See Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, p. 774, 798.
[2] Gerhard Weinberg, A World At Arms, pp. 157-159.
--
Re:Subsistence farming (Score:2)
The "poor merchant" was the East India Tea Company, which was a monopoly guaranteed by force of arms.
So, you're wrong; people were indeed being placed in prison for refusing to pay tea taxes, and the East India Tea Company lobbied to get their monopoly status emplaced. They were the only company legally allowed to import tea to the colonies, and they deliberately sold at a loss to drive out the domestic tea production.
McDonald's, on the other hand, does not have a monopoly on bad food in France, and nobody is just going there to eat because it's the only food available. McDonald's is not bribing French officials to outlaw Burger King, and they are selling their food at a profit.
French people are eating at McDonald's by choice. That says something about "community wishes".
--
Re:Real Protest (Score:4)
Woefully, this sort of lie works on most people. I doubt if the poster even realized that they were lying, as the numbers are basically accurate as far as they go. The problem is that the standard "rich are getting richer" line only works if you compare the present day with an economically depressed time period. If you were to compare today to the time just before the stock market drop in 1987, you would find that the rich have gotten poorer. If you were to compare today to 1930, you would find that your numbers paint a comparitively rosy picture.
Wealth is a poor benchmark. It really doesn't matter how much money Bill Gates has, for example, as long as joe blow on the street can buy enough eggs and milk to feed his family. Thus, measures of cost of living vs. income per region and per neigborhood are usually the best way to determine just how people are doing. Looked at in this way, the situation has only started to get bad where I am (Boston area) recently, due to housing prices mostly.
Of course, it's always easier to say "McDonalds is ruining our world." In reality, population is our single largest problem, and has been for about a century. Just about every activist issue (from polution to deforestation to energy-production to impersonal global corps.) has its roots in population growth. If you want to work for something that will better the human condition, work for population control. There are basically three ways to do this:
- Teach birth control early and often, and create incentives for single-child homes
- Have more wars / kill people in some other way
You may feel that either one is a bad idea for various reasons, but that really is about the only way you can do it. Of course either method can be coupled with a strong dictatorship (or other totalitarian state) for more sure results, but I don't recommend it.Re:Read some of the comments (Score:2)
This one was a bit better than usual. Perhaps, I got lost in some of my enthusiasm for the topic.
Re:Real Protest (Score:2)
what's wrong with McD's? (Score:2)
Fact: No war has ever occured in which both countries had a McD's.
maybe corporatism is better than nationalism, fundamentalism, fascism, rascism, communism, libertarianism, etc.
afterall, all of the above have had wars occur because of them.
Re:Jon, What exactly did MacDonalds do to him? (Score:2)
You mean like the amazing success of EuroDisney^H^H^H^H^H^H DisneyLand Paris? The emptiest^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hhappiest place on earth? The great sucking void that the Disney Corporation blew into the French countryside, only to have it become a sucking money vaccuum and void, where the designers didn't even have the blasted imagination necessary to change the park around to fit European taste? (I mean, come on: Main Street U.S.A., in France?!?!?!?)
In some places in the world, Micky D's will flourish. In France, I suspect they'll wither.
Re:Wait a second.. (Score:2)
Things don't just die. They die for a reason. Places like McDonalds haven't killed the local Diner in the US. They haven't killed the Chinese restraunt on the corner. Heck, they haven't killed the ice cream stand on the other corner.
And as far as everone looking the same, it may have been bad english, but it was a generally racist statement.
Re:Wait a second.. (Score:2)
Look you morons, NO ONE DIED! (Score:2)
There is no mention in it of anyone dying. And if someone had died he sure would have been on trial for worse than vandalism and the AP sure would have mentioned it.
Bove tore the roof off of a McDonalds that was still under construction. It had no 28-year-old-women managers. It didn't have ANY managers yet. It wasn't even open.
Knife 31 has no business telling anyone to check their facts. He's got to be an idiot. And now for your enlightenment:
France Big Mac Vandal Trial Begins
The Associated Press
Saturday, July 1, 2000; 1:36 p.m. EDT
MILLAU, France ÐÐ A public prosecutor on Saturday recommended that a sheep farmer who has waged a high-profile battle against globalization receive a 10-month suspended sentence for vandalizing a McDonald's restaurant in this southern French town.
Jose Bove was on trial with nine other defendants who attacked the Millau fast food restaurant last August during a wave of protests targeting the fast-food chain as a symbol of American trade "hegemony" and economic globalization.
Prosecutor Alain Durand also recommended that Bove spend 18 months on probation. Bove said he would appeal any sentence and vowed to continue his battle internationally.
"The combat will not stop at France's borders," said Bove, spokesman of the radical Farmers' Confederation union, who made headlines in December when he brought his anti-globalization message to the World Trade Organization summit in Seattle.
Prosecutor Alain Durand requested that the nine other defendants receive suspended sentences of no longer than three months, saying they merely carried out Bove's plans.
After the hearing, about 11,000 supporters gathered to greet the 10 defendants as they left the courtroom.
The Millau court began hearing arguments on Friday as about 15,000 demonstrators gathered to support the defendants. Later that night, a concert to mark the trial drew about 45,000 anti-globalization supporters.
The court is expected to deliver its decision Sept. 13.
Bove's battle began last year when the United States slapped sanctions on food products ranging from Roquefort cheese to foie gras in retaliation for the European Union's decision to ban imports of U.S. hormone-treated beef.
The mustachioed sheep farmer has said his main targets are the World Trade Organization, multinationals and governments that push scientifically engineered food. He says the organizations crush the small-time producers who insist on quality and taste.
© Copyright 2000 The Associated Press
Re:Wait a second.. (Score:2)
And creating demand where it does not exist? Where'd that come from? *NO* buisness 'creates' demand. Well, Ok, microsoft does, becouse they can. But how can a company create demand for a hamburger?? Subliminal messages I suppose?
I'll have you know, I work for a US company (As do many other Americans, I've been told. Damned those corperate slavemasters are good). When you talk of the corperate masters, you insult every single US citizen. Lemme get you in on a secret. *WE ARE THE CORPERATE MASTERS* you elequently refer to. Here, we don't refer to them as the 'corperate masters'. We call them Joe and Larry over there in the Marketing department. They're not coopting the sucess of the US people. They're using that success to grow markets. The *SAME WAY THEY DID HERE*. And if you buy it, they will come. And they're buying it..
Be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it. You want those antibiotics? Then hell yes you need the computer components. You gonna rely on someone else making it for the rest of your lives?? And as far as the nuclear waste, that's BS, and you know it. I can say I've NEVER heard of a contract to exchange antibiotics for nuclear waste..
Re:Hypocrite! (Score:2)
> drivel, i would like to remind the posters that
> they would not be posting on slashdot, would not
> be using a browser, would be surfing an
> internet, and would not be using a computer if
> it were not for "multinational corporations",
> the "military industrial complex" or
> "monopolies."
Yes yes yes, and mousolini DID in fact make the trains run on time. Whats your point?
> it is so strange that what "evil" corporations
> are accused of doing,(with what power i can't
> imagine) is the same stuff that governments
> have been doing forever!
With what power? Well its called money. People are wed to it. Can't survive in our society without it. That makes those who have alot of it powerful and capable of influencing people.
Its no better when governments do it really. Though really...does it matter if the media is run by a bunch of guys under name of government or a bunch of guys with allot of money under name of profits? Its the same end result.
Capitalism is broken because humans do NOT act in rational manners. They are much too easy to manipulate. Corperations have learned that quality of product doesn't matter...only quality of marketing and media control. Its better to buy out your competition or market like crazy than it is to actually make something worth buying.
Look at microsoft. They have bought companies with competeing or otherwise semi-cool products like most people buy coffee. I have yet to see a microsoft product that wasn't a steaming pile of shit (and yes, I have used them...supported them even, in past jobs). Yet its instant profit....just add marketing.
We are fast aproaching the point where it is hard to not be a customer of the huge companies. Go to the supermarket? well with very few exceptions you know nothing is locally produced and sold by small companies in there.
How about hardware stores? We used to have 3 in this area...Home Depot came in and all the others (all locally owned buisnesses) were out of buisness within 3 years. Now Home Depot has NO competition...they are the ONLY place in the area.
Starbucks does it with coffee shops. These things are becomming ubiqutous and its disgusting.
Nader (Score:2)
After Bradley was thrown off a cliff in favor of Al really-I'm-not-a-piece-of-wood Gore, leaving me with a choice between the lesser of two evils (isn't it always?), I was looking around at other parties. To my surprise, the Green party really encompasses a lot of what Slashdot and the net is about with respect to law and policy. The Green party, it seems to me, is really against rampant unethical corporate greed, and the awful wake it leaves, especially in government corruption, and putting power back in the people's hands (*really*...not just saying "I feel your pain").
Whether he knows it or not (he said he doesn't use computers), Nader's speech and the Green party's philosophy is in *lockstep* with net issues: corporatization, privacy invasion, incrementally stripping freedoms from people. It was very refreshing to find someone who has a record of fighting and winning on these issues was running for president, as opposed to the conventional black hole mind drain of "guns or babies" politics ("Hey, my opponent eats babies for breakfast. Vote for me!").
Re:Pinko slashdot readers, unite! (Score:2)
> since I last visited Berkeley.
I dunno. I don't think there is a SINGLE THING more "American" than criticizing the government and the current order.
Well either that or talking about personal freedom while driving people from their land in the name of "progress" or "manifest destiny" or whatever todays term is.
As for china...
> In China, nobody's rich! (Except for the
> bureaucrats, but no country's perfect.)
So what your saying is...Its NOT really a communist or socialist system...it just is for the masses, in reality a bunch of fat cats are living off the people. Doesn't sound like much of a utopia to me.
Its not a system that promotes equality of oppertunity among all people, doesn't sound like a place I want to be.
PSSST...Ayn Rand is dead! (Score:2)
Undemocratic? Did you ever think that we are in the "Thrall of third way socialist thugs" because the people of Canada vote for them? With an average 75% voter turnout, I'd say we are more democratic than the US.
..and as a matter of fact I DO vote for the NDP!
If you like the US so much, feel free to immagrate. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms - After marrying an American and having 2 children by him, you should probably only have to wait 30 months to get your green card (as my sister did - she's still waiting for that green card).
Why haven't you moved tio your capitalist paradise yet?
Re:American violence (Score:2)
As for massive gas taxes, the studies in fact do include them. They also include Health insurance premiums (average about $500 US per month for a family of 4) which we do not have to pay (social, UNIVERSAL, government-run health care - a thing of beauty). We also have very little or no user fees for many local and provincial government services. And I pay the same amount of tax whether I live in Downtown Toronto or in Wiarton, Ontario. Ask somebody form Philly about the 6% city tax just for living in the city. Add that onto a state sales tax and you pretty much have the equivilent of a "VAT" (we call it a GST - goods and services tax of 8% and PST - provincial sales tax of 7 % in Ontario - oh, and not everything, like food and diapers and such, is taxed). I've been to many US cities and grew up on the border with Michigan and I'm familiar with the quality of your infrastructure - roads, sewers, police etc.
My point is the same as my previous post - I may pay a little more tax but I get a hell of a lot of services.
You get what you pay for.
Re:Microsoft quote (Score:2)
carlos
Re:Probably because Katz has gone insane (Score:2)
William F. Buckley, for one. His picture could be placed next to "conservative" in the dictionary, but he has spoken up in favor of the decriminalization of drugs on many occasions.
Re:Learn More of Your History (Score:2)
But, perhaps you need to review *your* history. This country was founded by *businessmen* and, in part, was founded on economic freedoms. Remember the whole "taxation without representation" theme in the Declaration of Independance? Most of the Founding Fathers wanted to see a free-market economy. (At least, from what I've read of Ben Franklin's writtings. Check out "Fart Proudly", truly a masterpiece.) This isn't a political issue at all. It's an *economic* issue. The reason the corporations "run" this country is because we *pay* them to do so! Everytime we buy their goods or services, we encourage them to continue doing business the same way. How else did Microsoft get so big? We happily sent them our money for their product. Those of us that aren't happy with that are starting to use other people's products. (For instance, these days I'm using Corel's Wordperfect Suite on GNU-Linux, instead of Windows and the MS Office Suite.)
The real question is, is it so bad? A lot of people seem to think it's okay, or they wouldn't spend their money the way they do. I happen to agree with you on what's wrong, but not what to do about it. Yes, our government does not serve us anymore, but that's our fault. We need to get out and vote for a change. Get people into office that do care about what *we the people* really want. More importantly, get the people who have not done what we want back *out* of office. Then, we need to follow that up by putting our money where our mouth is, so to speak, and not supporting companies that we don't believe in anymore. And, in that regard, we do all need to educate ourselves more.
However, the Constitution is working just as our Founding Fathers intended it to work. Otherwise some fascist data-filter would have killed both our posts!
Thanks for listening,
RyuMaou
Re:Isn't what he did... (Score:2)
Vive Jose! (Score:5)
This form of direct action is actually quite common in France, it has not been long since French farmers stopped lorries carrying lamb entering France from the UK and burnt the (already slaughtered) contents.
At the moment it is not just french peasant farmers that are suffering. In the UK small upland farmers are going bankrupt at an amazing rate. One of the problems is increased new legislation, which I believe has been heavily lobbied for by the multinationals and large producers, which is forcing smaller abatoirs to close. Small farmers have to then take their produce a long way to get it slaughtered, and they cannot afford this.
There is also a problem with the buying power of the supermarkets and multinationals. You sell at our rates on our terms or you don't sell at all.
It is not all doom and gloom though. Organic produce is more popular than ever, and the rise of farmers markets in many towns is throwing a lifeline to the smaller producers.
I've already read many comments on this topic that seem to basically say "This guy is an anticapitalist nutter. Fuck him". This is a topic that many people in the EU (including myself) care passioately about. I visit the states regularly on business, and I have seen what unconstrained capitalism can do. Jose, I salute you and say "Vive le Roquefort".
And one more thing - beer guy, this is one thread where you will be so on-topic it will hurt!
regards,
treefrog
Translation: Bah! Don't confuse me with facts. (Score:2)
Hell! I gave references that debunked 3 stupid anecdotes in the parent to your post. If you look around the right places, you can find people who debunk more anecdotes.
How much are land prices? How big of a house could you buy/build out in the middle of nowhere? If you want to live in the city where everyone else lives, you have to pay the prices, or settle with a smaller living area. You have to compete with everyone else who wants to live there. And many of them are people who are also computer science and have fairly signifigant incomes.
How much is a farm in western Montana with lots of land and a big house? How much is a small house close to Silicon Valley? If having a big house is so important, why not move to Montana?
It's a choice that life gives you. Quit bitching that you don't like either option.
Re:In the words of south park... (Score:2)
Give me a break (Score:3)
How does McDonalds sell billion s [mcdonalds.com] (USD) worth of hamburgers in non-US markets? If everyone hates America so much, why does everyone keep buying Big Macs? (or any other "Corporate Republic" product?)
I would gladly pay to send Jon Katz to one of those small precious countries without internet access that are so endangered by the "Corporate Republic", provided he promise to never come back. Go seek your "freedom" elsewhere, wannabe.
(Paid for by the Coalition to Point Out to Jon Katz that he is a Soft American.)
On Corporatism and Cheese Farmers (Score:2)
Jon, I like that you are talking about corporatism. In fact, Slashdot is the site that first hooked me up with that meme, and I appreciate it. However, I don't think that a cheese farmer, while a recent news item, is a great example of corporatism working against an individual, or why an individual should fight back.
If you were trying to sell someone on the idea of corporatism with your article, I don't think people would rally behind you. McDonalds encroaching on the rights of a cheese farmer in France? Hardly compelling. The story of the Film Festival ruining the delicate ecosystem of Mr. Hanky is far more grabbing.
I want to see real corporatism, Jon. Show it to me. Show me corporations stomping all over normal people. (For example, health care and corporatism. Coporations and their ability to change the law to work against individuals.)
Give us stuff that makes Scientology tactics look like amateurs.
Re:But why? (Score:2)
Yes, and the local outlet here has pizza as well. But I challenge you to tell the difference between a quarter pounder in Quebec and one made here in Los Angeles.
Perhaps You Don't Understand... (Score:2)
Hi!
I don't think you understand who the patient is we're talking about. Let me elaborate.
Children who get sick go to the pediatrics wing of your local hospital. Children who get banged up in car accidents go to the pediatric intensive-care ward of your local hospital.
Children who are long-term inpatients at children's hospitals are not "normal" kids with boo-boos. They have cancer. They are waiting for transplants. They are hoping to improve enough to be considered as candidates for open-heart surgery. In short, their parents are on their knees every morning and every night, praying desperately to God that these kids live long enough to be able to worry about eating too much fat in their diet.
My youngest daughter has Down syndrome. 54% of Downs kids need open-heart surgery before they're two. Annie was spared that by a merciful God--but more than a third of her preschool classmates are now dead. A beautiful, clever, sparkling little boy who terrorized the world with his motorized wheelchair at age 5 died of lung problems when he was 8--he literally outgrew his lungs. He loved McNuggets--and the medical staff at Children's Hospital thought that McNuggets were just what kids like him needed. I agree.
Re:American violence (Score:2)
And when you go for that MRI you'd better hope that the hospital recognizes your insurance, or that you have enough insurance, or that going to the hospital won't raise your premiums or that the MRI is even covered by your insurance...because you know they will take care of business before you get treated. I'd rather wait a little longer and be able to get medical procedures just by showing my little green and white card (OHIP). And get treatment because I need it not because I can afford it.
I once paid $1000(Can - about $600 US) for 5 stitches in Boston. In Toronto I may have had to wait an extra hour but it would have cost $0(Can - about $0 US).
BTW MRI patients in Toronto are being sent to Buffalo on OHIP and are getting treament.
If you don't like Canada, move...no one will miss you.
Re:Big talk (Score:2)
It *only* cares to make money. It will do anything to add to the coffers.
Every single penny they spend on *good things* such as homes for battered women and such are *only* done to gain market share. (They declined a large donation to a childrens hospital to due to the fact that the hospital would not put up McDonald character pictures in the wards (which could help gain life long patrons.))
If McDonald's is putting in *any* site. It is only because they think they can make money. It is not because locals actually like the food, want the food, or desire the food. People will *choke it down* when pressed for quick meals, cheap meals or some junk food.
McDonald's cares not for anything but their coffers. They would sell their grandmother in a bun except that public outcry would cause a drop in the corporate wealth.
Re:Real Protest (Score:2)
Re:Food Culture Clash (Score:2)
If someone kills your father, you don't find someone who looks a lot like the murderer and kill him for revenge.
This guy took it out on the wrong people - it's as simple as that.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
Re:Subsistence farming (Score:4)
Since April 19, 1775.
Don't they teach American history in schools? What was the Boston Tea Party but an act of vanadalism??
In obedience to your Excellency's orders, I marched yesterday morning at 9 o'clock with the 1st brigade and two field pieces in order to cover the retreat of the grenadiers and light infantry in their return from their expedition to Concord.
As all the houses were shut up, and there was not the appearance of a single inhabitant, I could get no intelligence concerning them till I had passed Menotomy when I was informed that the rebels had attacked his Majesty's troops who were retiring, overpowered by numbers, greatly exhausted and fatigued, and having expended almost all their ammunition - and at about 2 o'clock I met them retiring rough the town of Lexington - I immediately ordered the 2 field pieces to fire at the rebels, and drew up the brigade on a height.
The shot from the cannon had the desired effect, and stopped the rebels for a little time, who immediately dispersed, and endeavored to surround us being very numerous. As it began now to grow pretty late and we had 15 miles to retire, and only 36 rounds, I ordered the grenadiers and light infantry to move of first; and covered them with my brigade sending out very strong flanking parties which were absolutely very necessary, as there was not a stone wall, or house, though before in appearance evacuated, from whence the rebels did not fire upon us. As soon as they saw us begin to retire, they pressed very much upon our rear guard, which for that reason, I relieved
every now and then.
In this manner we retired for 15 miles under incessant fire all round us, till we arrived at Charlestown, between 7 and 8 in the evening and having expended almost all our ammunition. We had the misfortune of losing a good many men in the retreat, though nothing like the number which from many circumstances I have reason to believe were killed of the rebels. His Majesty's troops during the whole of the affair behaved with their usual intrepidity and spirit nor were they a little exasperated at the cruelty and barbarity of the rebels, who scalped and cut off the ears of some of the wounded men who fell into their hands.
While I think that Mr. Katz's writings are crap, the fact of the matter is that the US was founded by a violent revolution, one of the few (if not only) British colonies to engage in such.
The problem with holding Mr. Bove up as a hero is that he is not the victim of 'corporatism' that Mr. Katz would have us believe. He is the victim of a government bureacracy acting to restrain free trade - some thing that multinationals hold abhorent, and the very thing that the anti-corporatists propose in order to protect their petty national self-interests.
Face it folks, globalization is the natural evolution of human society on it's way from tribe, village, city-state, nation towards a real world society. Anything or anyone that tries to fight this is simply a socio-luddite, and is in fact opposing the progress of the human spirit towards a world where the tragic consequences (holocausts, ethnic cleansings, nuclear proliferation) of adherance to petty social groups (i.e. nations)
are no longer tenable.
THINK, DAMMIT!
Learn More of Your History (Score:4)
[This Chapter] [mcwilliams.com] in particular deals with the Constitution and Confederation, and what was intended by the men who created it. The [next chapter] [mcwilliams.com] deals with the Bill of Rights.
The entire book is worth reading, because it will alter the way you view your rights and freedoms. Things aren't as charming as you've been brainwashed to believe: you are not free, it is not a democracy, and your government is slowly but surely destroying the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Of course, most people won't ever read the book and will go meekly along like sheep to slaughter.
Frankly, I think most of you should be getting a bit more educated, a bit more aware, and a lot more politically active. You need to wrestle control of your country back from the corporations, powermongers and religous fanatics that are destroying it.
--
The Real Protest (Score:4)
More information about the McLibel case can be found on the activist's group McSpotlight [slashdot.org] which also contains information on the current French trial of José Bové, and the French Peasant Confederation. [slashdot.org]
I bid all the anti-globalisation fighters against multi-nationals striving to deprave us of choice and free speech out there the best of luck.
Re:Give me a break (Score:3)
I hate to tell you sonny, but it was alot more then that. It's sad to see where america as gone since it was founded by those great men. Those signer's of the Declaration of Independence signed it knowing that death was almost surely a result. Could you have done it? I doubt it. Hell, I doubt I could. Don't believe that the signers suffered? Read this [jewishworldreview.com] ( the DrudgeReport always has good links FWIW ). Before you start spouting off and whining about "rich white lawyers and land owners", maybe you should remember that they died and lost their land and fortune so YOU wouldn't be a british SUBJECT. And instead, a free man. Now, if you're not as free as you'd like, blame the people, but NOT the founders.
(Paid for by the Coalition to Point Out to Jon Katz that he is a Soft American.)
Okay, I agree with that
You said it yourself in the first sentence, Jon. (Score:3)
Trashing.
There are many freedoms we enjoy, but destroying the property of others is not one of them.
Sadly, these neo-revolutionaries like to redefine their definitions of right and wrong, violence and peaceful protest.
Check out the definition of violence [www.tao.ca] according to these groups. Pay close attention to the 2nd point:
These people believe the destruction of property belonging to others (IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO... since only greedy capitalists would own something anyways) is a perfectly acceptable means of furthering their own views.
By definition, anyone who so much as disagrees with them is an "oppressor" and by their first definition, is inextricably linked with "white supremacists", "homophobia", "animal abuse" and a range of other equally distasteful groups.
I harbour no sympathy for Jose or his anarchist compatriots. Society is not built upon anarchy. He deserves whatever he gets.
Jon, next time, please find a "hero" that's worth respecting.
--
USA : Home Of The Shit-Basted Irradiated Chicken (Score:3)
Poultry in america is already reported to have a 10% increase in fecal contamination now that "irradiation" can be used to sterilize it -- after all, if a corporation can serve you sterile shit with your food, why not eat it, if it means higher profits through increased efficiency! Plus, that chicken can sit on the shelf at the market for weeks now, without expiring. yummy.
And that liberal clinton government. They signed in a law so fruits and vegetables may be labeled "cold pasteurized" instead of "irradiated". After all, who would buy food labeled "irradiated" if the bin next to it says "organic"? What do you want to feed your baby? The baby food manufacturers have already decided to skip on "irradiated" products. Wouldn't Louis Pasteur be proud!!
Here's the real shit about freedom -- it's not maintaining the staus quo -- it's about working every day to end the reign of power structures that desperately want to control you mind and poison your body (salt, sugar and fat are the cheapest (and unhealthiest) ways to satisfy your body's cravings for nutrition) while picking your pocket:
> > Subject: Declaration of Independence
> >
> >
> > Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the
> > Declaration of Independence?
> >
> > Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured
> > before they died.
> > Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.
> > Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two
> > sons captured.
> > Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the
> > Revolutionary War.
> > They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their
> > sacred honor.
> >
> > What kind of men were they?
> >
> > Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were
> > farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But
> > they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the
> > penalty would be death if they were captured.
> > Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his
> > ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and
> > properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.
> > Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to
> > move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without
> > pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from
> > him, and poverty was his reward.
> > Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer,
> > Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of
> > Yorktown,Thomas Nelson Jr, noted that the British General Cornwallis had
> > taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged
> > General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and
> > Nelson died bankrupt.
> > Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed
> > his wife, and she died within a few months.
> > John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying.Their
> > 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid
> > to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning
> > home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later
> > he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.
> > Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates.
> > Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution.
> > These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were
> > soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they
> > valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they
> > pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the
> > protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other,
> > our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."
> > They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history
> > books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War.
> > We didn't fight just the British. We were British subjects at that time
> > and we fought our own government!
> > Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we
> > shouldn't.
> > So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and
> > silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they
> > paid. Remember: freedom is never free! I hope you will show your
> > support by please sending this to as many people as you can. It's time
> > we get the word out that patriotism is NOT a sin, and the Fourth of July
> > has more to it than beer, picnics, and baseball games.
Re:American violence (Score:4)
I guess you get what you pay for, eh?
Re:anti biotech sentiment (Score:5)
Yeah, sure, biotech is full of wonderful wholesome potential. So was atomic energy.
Now let's look at what these things are used for in the real world. That is, if you don't mind referring, now and again, to the real world, just for a break for variety's sake from the glowing-monitor Metaverse of free-floating theory. But if you do mind, please skip what follows, as it is sure to distress you.
Atomic energy - remember atomic energy? - was supposed to make electricty too cheap to meter, to irrigate the Sahara, and in general to usher mankind into a new era of prosperity and contentment. But in reality, the very first application of it was to smash and/or incinerate about one hundred and fifty thousand defenseless civilians to bloody pulp. Later in its career, atomic energy was used to politically terrorize half the globe, and as a side-benefit, in a mere half-century it has heaped up upon the face of the earth vast volumes of pervasive high-intensity pollutants, which to this day no one knows how to safely store for decades much less hundreds of millennia, that will require something in excess of twenty times the length of recorded history to subside in toxicity to where they are no longer an acute threat to the continuation of mammalian life.
Biotech is supposed to make it possible to grow crops in the Sahara, and to cure all known diseases, and in general to usher mankind into a new era of prosperity and contentment. So let's take a look at the very first two commercial products of this wonderful transgenic technology which the Monsanto Corporation has brought to the marketplace. The first is something called "Roundup-ready" soybeans. These soybeans have been modified so that factory farmers can hose down their soybean fields with hitherto unusable quantities of another Monsanto product, a toxic herbicide called "Roundup," in order to kill off all the weeds. Without the "Roundup-ready" gene, the quantities of the herbicide "Roundup" that are employed would render the field as sterile as a patch in the middle of the Sea of Tranquillity, but the artificial gene makes the customized soybeans immune to this toxin. If you're planning on eating these crops, I hope you too are immune to that "Roundup" herbicide. Not that you'd know, however, because the chemical companies have lobbied our legislators so vendors of this Frankenfood are not required to inform you that that package you plucked off the store shelf contains a product not of nature but of the lab.
If you think that's sinister, contemplate the second commercial application of biotech. It's called "Terminator" [dynamics.org] . It has precisely one purpose: to render food crops sterile. See, ever since the days of the Sumerian Empire and even before, humans practicing agriculture have saved a certain amount of year X's harvest as seed for year X+1's planting. But Monsanto sells seed to farmers in eighty-plus countries, and, insanely, Monsanto claims that one hundred percent of the genotype of these seeds they sell ("developed," in the main, by nature and evolution across geological eras of time) is all Monsanto's "intellectual property". Well, just like any other greed-crazed industrial megalith, Monsanto is pathologically protective of its "intellectual property" and the profits which flow therefrom.
Suppose I am a farmer in, say, India, and I buy a load of Monsanto-brand seeds and plant a crop. When I harvest my crop, as farmers have done since prehistoric times, I save a portion of the grain for next year's seed crop. Now I don't need to go back to Monsanto and buy more, right? Which God forbid! Why, that would be like allowing a heroin addict to grow his own poppies. Where's the big profit for the drug lords there? The only difference being, of course, one can kick heroin addiction, but who can kick the eating habit?
So to prevent the catastrophe of a Fortune 500 corportation losing any potential profits, the genetic engineers at Monsanto inject a special gene - the "Terminator" gene - into the seeds I bought, so that they are fertile in the first generation but totally infertile in the second.
That's pretty bad in itself, my farm becoming helplessly addicted to purchasing Monsanto's seeds, but it gets worse. You're an adult, you know about the birds and the bees, right? Even plants have sex, dreamy plant-like sex, and sex means they trade their genes back and forth. So when the pollen from "Terminator" treated food crops drifts over the fence into my neighbor's field, his crops can end up infected with the diabolical "Terminator" gene. Now his next year's crop comes up OK at first but suddenly it all drops dead after about eleven weeks. Gee, won't he be happy! Now imagine this effect taking place en masse all across a continent. It would take the psychotic sensibility of PKD's "Null-O" to dispassionately contemplate the vast and unprecedented human catastrophe that would occur if, say, one year a third of the Asian rice crop were accidentally wiped out by the uncontrollable dissemination of this destructive gene.
OK, those are the very first two applications of biotech out of Monsanto. Have I made my point yet? Sure, biotech is full of promise. But biotech is not being employed by civic-minded scientists with benevolent goals. Today biotech is owned and operated by capitalist corporations, despite the fact that the entire scientific foundation upon which it rests, and half of the innovations, are the direct product of research paid for by the taxpayers in general - just like with the Internet, the taxpayer pays for the basic research, then after it becomes commercially viable corporations patent all the good parts and stuff the profits in their pockets. And as everyone knows, everything that capitalism touches it turns to shit.
In theory, biotech may have potential for good results, but so long as it is employed solely to deepen the wealth gap between the investing class and the rest of us, I am convinced that it will only yield evil results.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
Removing Jon Katz HowTo (Score:4)
2) from any
faq [slashdot.org]
code [slashdot.org]
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privacy [andover.net]
slashNET [slashnet.org]
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rob's page [cmdrtaco.net]
(click here)
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(click here)
andover.net [andover.net]
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hof [slashdot.org]
3) Find the name Jon Katz in the list of AUTHORS (try not to wince in discust while reading his name):
X JonKatz place an X here
4) Scroll down to the bottom of the page and find a button that says savehome and click on it.
Your /. experience will now be as informative and interesting as before but without those dreadfully trollish rantings from the tiresome and clueless yonny cats.
___
Re:Real Protest (Score:5)
Yeah. That's worked so well with Amazon.com over their "One-Click Shopping" patent. Ooo! Ooo! I don't use Microsoft software. How much longer until they're gone?
You know, the odd thing is that I already don't eat McDonalds because I don't like the food. I wonder why the ones near me haven't closed yet?
Reality is funny that way.
Who is José Bové, and is he admirable? [Facts] (Score:4)
Who is José Bové, and is he admirable?
He is a Frenchman who was born in Bordeaux in 1953, and grew up at Berkeley, as his parents studied Biochem. Back in France, he refused to do his military service and dropped out of Bordeaux University to immerse himself in various leftist political and ecological movements. In 1975 he and his wife decided to move to the country, take up sheep farming and join a local peasant movement (Confédération paysanne), which he terms 'a trade union', though I do not understand in what sense he means this) against a plan to extend an army base in southern France. He was arrested for "invading" the base during a 1976 protest, and he spent three weeks in prison. (The military project was canceled five years later, more due to the economy than nanything else
In 1998, he blew up up a silo (which belonged to the pharmaceutical firm Novartis [novartis.com]) because it contained genetically modified corn. Here's Mssr. Bove's own statement about his actions and motives [greens.org]. It appears to have been written in English, or at least be an authorized translation. I haven't found a French original or variant translations.
In 1999, he became a 'national hero' (according to his supporters -- he's certainly a cult figure [cyberjedi.org.uk]) for damaging an unfinished McDonalds with a bulldozer, and later organizing a massive giveaway of Roquefort cheese to protest US import restrictions. He also is known for staging 'illegal' free Roquefort and French bread picnics in front to McDonald's during the WTO protests in Seattle. Distributing the cheese was 'illegal' because it was unpasteurized. Time magazine did a piece on him [time.com]
But he's not in jail for the bulldozer attack. he spent 20 days in jail for that in 1999. He calls that the greatest favor the judge could have done, due to the publicity it gave him.
On Wednesday, April 19, 2000, an attack on a McDonald's resulted in the death of a '28 year-old waitress'. Jose Bove is believed to have ordered this attack. He has always proclaimmed his movement (Confédération paysanne) to be nonviolent, but admits that violent means have been used, and often refers to the groups actions as 'combat' (same in French as English) I found a French account of the attack [libres.org] that you can babelfish, if necessary
I also found an 12/99 interview [bretagne-online.com] where he outlines his current views. He is not an ultra-liberal (in fact he denounced ultraliberalism as 'suicidal'), his personal views are a patchwork of conflicting insistence on individualism and collectivism, (which becomes harder for me to render coherently, the more I read) Politically, he opposes 'internationalization' and insists that 'each nation has a right to choose what it wants to eat' (he supports French Bans on US food, while protesting US bans on French foods)
I leave an analysis of his ideology to others -- anyone but Katz.
Corporatism, not Capitalism (Score:4)
Tariffs are constraints on capitalism. Tariffs are bad (as you and Jose seem to agree). Please don't confuse corporatism with capitalism. Corporatism is the belief that your corporation's agenda is more important than any other objective. Capitalism is the belief that free market economics (elimination of tariffs and other trade barriers, unrestrained competition, free flow of information, etc.) will result in the rapidest financial benefit for all, including labor and management, foreign and domestic.
The worst aspects of America's economy are the result of corporatism (tariffs, patents, auto insurance, health care, Microsoft, etc.). The best aspects are the result of free market capitalism (high standard of living, opportunity to try a startup, ubiquitous Internet access, etc.). I agree that America has problems, but capitalism is not at fault.
Regarding the stricter restrictions on food processing, I wish to avoid salmonella and mad cow disease, and am in favor.
Bob (rbb36)
Re:But why? (Score:3)
From this perspective, McDonalds is an abomination, serving up homogenized, tasteless garbage just for the sake of a fast meal. Until now, its been something to sneer at from afar, but now that its right in the town, its triggered a major backlash.
I can empathize with this - I grew up in the Baltimore area, well known, at least it used to be, for its distinctive seafood cuisine. Ive been away for >25 years now, and each time I go back to visit, there's less and less places that can make really good crab dishes, and the area looks more and more like every other area - roads covered with burger kings, dennys, wendys, uno pizza's etc. What I find objectionable is the "homogenization" of the local cultures in the US, and I suspect thats what bothers many of the followers of Bove.
Happy 4th, everyone (Score:3)
Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.
Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.
Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.
Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.
At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr, noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.
Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.
John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.
Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates.
Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more.
Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."
They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government!
Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't.
So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid. Remember: freedom is never free!
Re:Real Protest (Score:3)
Yea, I remember, it was just like Elian. NBC/CBS/CNN had 24-hour news coverage, choppers, the whole nine yards. Oh wait, those were McDonald's commercials
Is it any wonder why the "look at this idiot for a month" media has taken over?
--
Isn't what he did... (Score:3)
Re:Real Protest (Score:4)
God in Heaven, are you ever wrong about that. The class war in the U.S.A. is alive and well. It's just that only one side is fighting, the other side, my side, is mostly standing around, numbly, dumbly staring mouth agape at the TV, taking the blows and not fighting back. That's what's wrong with this country, why we've gone down the tubes so bad these last couple of decades. The family at the median point of incomes in the U.S.A. works something like fifteen weeks more per year than in 1975 for the same amount of goods, meanwhile the top one percent of incomes has doubled their share of the national wealth, but you never noticed at all. It's because suckers like you refuse to pay any attention, that our enemies in the ongoing class war have made the devastating inroads that they have.
Why don't you tune in to the economic news in your daily newspaper? The Fed has been raising the prime rate for years now with the naked intent of running the unemployment rate up to what is to them a more comfortable figure. Sooner or later the recession they are so assiduously engineering is going to kick in, and then the shit's really going to hit the fan. Who will you blame then, "welfare queens"?
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
Real Protest (Score:5)
You don't eat there, they close up shop and go home. You eat there, Micky D's makes some money, and opens up another franchise down the street.
Capitalism is funny that way.
Re:Real Protest (Score:3)
say goodbye to the old world (Score:3)
With regard to the issue about small farmers and other people being squeezed out of their 'way of life' - perhaps it is important to take a broad look at the way society is changing across the board. Are the children of these people taking on new-age roles and jobs, and living in the future ? If so, then it is inevitable that life in the new world will not include 'small farmers' as anything other than a lifestyle choice, rather than an economically sustainable way to live. The same thing happened to 'blacksmiths' and 'wood turners' as the world ebbed into industrialisation -- such is life, and such is progress!
Re:Probably because Katz has gone insane (Score:3)
Remember, their beef (no pun intended) was with being ruled without representation by some braindead aristocratic loser thousands of miles away. The twit Brits believed that just because his father was King so should his son be king. How insane is that? What qualifications does he have? That's not a way to rule a country. You need democratically elected representatives to voice the opinion of the majority of the nation!
Thats exactly what the artical is saying! France has the right to live out of the rule of the corporate america. And take a look at American "democracy" these days. America is one of the oldest democracies thats still around and this is something to be pround of. But its age shows. We americans live under a plutocracy, where third parties can not have a voice. Other newer democracies are not like this! Why is it that we are the richest nation in the world but second only to Mexico in poverty in industrialized nations?
And now organizations like the WTO take American sovernity. Check out this link [house.gov] from a conservative legistlator complaining about the WTO for those reasons.
Arrrgg! Sarcasm, people! (Score:3)
Everyone seems to be responding to me with exactly my point. No, you and I protesting McDonalds by not eating there does not shut them down. It only looses them 2 customers. In the mean time, there are millions more. The whole idea that people can control the actions of corporations by single-handedly not purchasing from them is ridiculous. That's why corporations are so dangerous. Without someone bigger bullying them around (i.e. the government), they have almost no accountability for their actions.
...and no, I don't think McDonalds should be closed because I don't like their food. I'm just pointing out that me not buying food from them hasn't hurt them badly. While there's nothing formal in the way of a boycott or protest in my actions, they are no different to McDonalds, Inc. than that of some guy who doesn't visit them because they're upset about some issue.
Go back and read the story (Score:5)
France banned hormone-injected American beef that was not labelled. Instead of labelling our meat properly, our government childishly responded by adding a 100% tax on Roquefort cheese and other French delicacies.
Yes, he broke the law when he vandalized a McDonalds. However there is one very American thing most of you forgot about: Civil Disobedience - breaking the law as a form of protest. It is indeed a valid, time honored way to get your point across, and as long as you aren't directly hurting anyone and are willing to pay the consenquences, is a noble act.
Thought the title was a joke (Score:4)
Jose, can you see
By the dawn's early light....
-JD
Re:Jon, What exactly did MacDonalds do to him? (Score:3)
The French are quite passonate about their culture. Frankly I suspect they would rather allow some of their people to starve or live in poverty than lose their culture. This is not a bad thing per se; just a different value system than the one we have in the United States.
See, in the United States, the problem is not "multi-nationals" or the "corporate culture" as Katz keeps pounding out as some sort of repetitve chant. The problem is that in our ingenuity and our drive to make money, we try to cater to the lowest common denominator of the masses without regards to regional or parochial concerns. After 50 years of studying just in time distribution models and studies in retail competition, we've succeeded in creating more goods for more people at a cheaper price point than at any time in history. Now, even the poorest in the United States can afford a color television, mass-produced jewelry, mass-produced art and many other trappings which used to be reserved for the middle class. We've also reached a state of affairs where you cannot tell if you've walked into a shopping mall in Atlanta or in Los Angeles--because they're the same stores and the same layout with the same color scheme.
The French abhor this bland uniformity. To them, this sort of uniformity in the name of catering to the lowest common denominator is a form of walking death.
And so they protest. And they protest the signs of this bland uniformity, a MacDonalds which strives for such conformity that you couldn't tell a quarter pounder made in a MacDonalds in Japan from one made in Kentucky.
I'm sure there are other issues which drove Jose specifically to be pissed at the United States. The world seems full of people who hate the US with a passion for one reason or another, some of it perceived, some of it real. Knowing though that MacDonalds represents everything the French abhor about the United States, at least you can understand why he attacked one.
What a nut (Score:3)
I wonder if Katz will feel the same way when they come to smash his home.
American violence (Score:4)
He also embodies what used to be considered American values.
What, using violence as a means to get what you want without concern for the consequences or ethics? If that's what you mean Jon, then I fully agree that he's a role model for the history and "values" of the US, a nation which started a bloody revolution over taxes.
---
Jon E. Erikson
Re:But why? (Score:5)
They see Micky D's as more than just an abomination of the local cuisine. They see McDonalds as the first wave of an american cultural invasion which caters to the lowest common denominator and rolls like a bulldozer over parochial cultural concerns.
They look to the United States and see that, since about the 1990's, you cannot tell the difference between a shopping mall in Long Beach and a shopping mall in Atlanta. Of course in the United States, we strove for this sort of bland conformity in order to make it cheaper and easier to manufacture goods and services to a larger audience. And nothing better exemplifies this sort of bland conformity than McDonalds, where you couldn't tell the difference between a hamburger made in Japan from one made in Baltimore.
To the French, this sort of comformity is a form of walking death.
The French protest McDonalds because they fear a world where walking into a shopping district in Moscow is no different than walking through the French quarter in New Orlenes, where the Lobster and butter is a standardized bland flavor throughout the world, and where we all wear clothes from the Gap.
And to a certain degree I can't say that I blame them. While I appreciate a corporate culture which is attempting to cater to as many people as possible, it bothers me greatly that there is no place to go to find something different. I can drive for almost two hundred miles (I'm in Los Angeles) before I find anything that isn't the same damn shopping mall/fast food/tourist crap/mass produced electronics/mass produced art stuff. Hell, I bet in 10 more years, downtown Tiajuana looks like downtown San Francisco and downtown Honolulu....
Give me a freaking break (Score:3)
If you expect people to respect your property rights, you have to respect the property rights of others. If he doesn't like McDonald's, he should educated others as to why they should not patronize their restaurants. He has no right to simply destroy their property.
This might be the all-time worst trollish JonKatz post.
--
Values? (Score:3)
Even though he isn't an American citizen, he's got a pretty good grip on what used to be considered American values, and is thus an Independence Day icon for the increasingly-resented United States, the Corporate Republic's world headquarters.
I'm missing something. Jose Bove fights against a multinational corporation - for which I applaud him - and is thus ascribed "American values"? What are these values (whether or not they still exist)? Why do they have to be "American"? The men in 1776 didn't have a problem with trade, they had a problem with taxes (and the stirrings of abolitionism). I fail to see any valid connection.
Corporatism['s]...primary target is individualism, its primary enemy individualists --which means hackers, programming entrpeneurs, renegade teachers, small businessmen and farmers like Bove, odd-ball filmmakers.
So these now-past American values include individualism? I don't think so. If by individualists you mean non-conformists, then maybe yes. However, most of the people you list there and as Bove's supporters are working from within a collective and cooperative framework, the most familiar example being the OS development community.
Jon, I see where you're going with this, and I think that with more thought it might have been quite a strong point. I think your praise of people like Bove and the comparison you draw between such activists and hackers et al. is an interesting one. But why the hell did you have to drag in the good ole U.S.ofA. and the tired crap about freedom? (Freedom in this version seems to have been invented by those guys in Philly...) It's a glaringly weak point in an otherwise potentially interesting piece -- it introduces thoughtless jingoism. Combine that with the confusion over individualism (which edges dangerously close to the libertoons) and nonconformity/cooperative work, and the piece ends up rather mushy and obscurely irritating, rather than thought-provoking. Save me from rhetoric I could hear in any elementary school around Memorial Day.
A thoughtful comparison between the WTO protesters and hackers into open source would be more than welcome on this screen, however. Maybe I'll try...
--
Proof that Slashdot Moderators are Ignorant... (Score:3)
PS: The post is offtopic as well.
Re:No way, Jose (Score:5)
Many corporations are richer than many countries now. General motors is richer than Denmark.
Increasingly, corporations are making decisions 'in partnership with' local government, because local government is poor and disorganised.
It is a true thing that increasingly, our lives are not blighted by fat, greedy mayors taking back handers in the town hall, but by greedy companies that simply walk all over the town hall.
The interesting parallel between the US Revolution and Jose is that both occassions were primarily about money. If the UK had been smart, they'd have cut taxes on the US, opened up the trade, and all would have been well.
And if people weren't so desperate to have tasty burgers with 0 effort required, there wouldn't be giant companies walking all over us so much.
Bullshit! (Score:4)
Try running some statistics; the poor in the year 2000 are better off than the middle class in 1971. The average work week has gone DOWN by about 2 hours in the last 30 years.
Since 1900, we've gone from 76% of out income being spent on food, clothing, and shelter to 37%, which is why we have *twice* the income to spend on goodies like cars and computers. If you want a workweek half as long, just give up those toys. More good news like this here. [fumento.com]
Here's another tidbit. Did you know that bank's create wealth. Say a ``rich person'' puts a billion dollars in the bank. That money gets loaned out to people who buy goods which funds your salary. You, and a million other people put a thousand in the bank. Guess what? There's now two billion in the bank. So what if they have a billion in the bank? You have your thousand in the bank. Who controls more wealth? Your million friends of the big evil rich person? You both have the same wealth; wealth that you wouldn't have had had then not invested it. What does it matter, unless your envious?
That's what annoys me about all this inequitable distribution of wealth crap. If someone has money, they either do one of two things with it. They spend it, funding other people's salaries, or they invest it, where it gets multiplied 10x; with most of that going to other people's pockets.
The federal reserve is the one thing that's kept this economic expansion going so long. Fundamentally, if you make the competetion for labor sufficiently intense, the cost of labor goes up. Businesses then have to raise prices to compensate for the higher labor costs. This raises the cost of living and makes people demand higher wages. IE: inflation. Inflation is hideous, it can wipe out fixed incomes. (If you're retired and have to live on $500/month, having prices double over 5 years is nasty). It forces interest rates up, as banks have to hedge against being paid back in dollars that are worth less. It also makes long-term planning in any contract. If you agree to sell a million playstations for $300 over the next 3 years, and find out that the dollar is worth 1/2 as much near the end; you've wiped out your profit margin. There are places where inflation has been so severe, that prices have doubled every week; people got paid twice a day to help keep up. Either way, lending rates go up discourage lending, and the economy slows down. One's just nastier than the other.
Now, I will agree that a lot of the crap that corporations do should be stopped. I hate corporations railroading over honest people or freedom just because they're bigger. I hate corporations that lie and manipulate people or are hypocritical (like Ben and Jerrys unsafe, dioxin laced ice cream. [junkscience.com]). I dislike the WTO or the MPAA.
But on the other side, I dislike the sabotage, terrorism and, most critically, the lies spread by the anti-corporations side.
Like any other human-made system, capitalism and corporatism isn't perfect. The system needs tuning and fixing once in a while. But, overall, it's the best way to run things that we know about. It's not a fundamentally broken system.
Spreading misinformation or lies around just to scare people into joining you is not the way to win. Spreading the truth is. Ultimately, in a democracy, the government answers to the people. If enough people demand something, it will happen.