Voices From The Hellmouth 4 76
"I can understand where a lot of people are coming from on this. I am a 'freak' and 'Goth'. I don't even know how I got the Goth label since I never wear black (I usually wear colorful outfits), don't like Marilyn Manson, and am an overall happy person. People seem to think I am weird because I listen to Bjork and like Linux. Also, people (wrestlers, so I don't give them much credit) think I'm going to blow up the school. Why, you might ask? Well, because I'm taking French, I dyed my hair and (here's the clincher) I have an unibrow! So now unibrow = unabomber. Everyone watch out for that extra hair, it could be the difference between normal and serial killer. Again, thanks for giving freaks a place to be heard."---J. (Original Comment #1)
"I am one of the misfits - a girl Geek, if there was such a person. I got abused horribly by the jocks like the guys did, but it was worse in some ways as a woman because of the sexual element. I never considered doing violence to my tormentors - although my desire to defeat them led me in a roundabout way to the study of the occult - where I learned instead to rule myself. (Yes, there is a good side to the occult, if you can past all the bs.) Now I understand how Jedi Mind Tricks really work, and when I have a run-in with a jock sort (they live in a time warp, growing potbellies and kids, but never truly maturing) I remember how weak-minded they are, and whop them with a bit of good old verbal and mental Aikido."---T.I. (Original Comment #2)
"For nearly two weeks now the search for meaning and the search for culprits in this terrible event has led to - Well, where it's led has depended on who you read. And I find that "interesting" to say the least. Read Salon, it's the gays who are being blamed. Read the W. Post and it's the Goths, the Marilyn Manson fans and the Hitler youth who get the blame. And let's not forget gun owners. Read Slashdot, and it's the Geeks who are blamed, except they are blaming the jocks. Yeah, right. Who's kidding whom? You hurt someone, you're part of the problem. You pull the trigger, you're a big part of the problem. You point fingers, you're part of the problem too. And that includes the Geeks here, who don't seem to notice that they're doing-unto-others exactly what they say is being done to them. Yes, this is one big mess and the e-mails Jon Katz has shown us all week are compelling. But I can't help but think that those of us who ever saw ourselves as outcasts have done it to ourselves."---J. (Original Comment #3)
"I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have tried harder to be the school prom King. Perhaps I just wanted to be called 'Fag' all the time. If only I could have just ignored my curiosity for the binary challenge, or my love for good art. Silly me to think that I didn't fit in with the people who kicked me in the hall and spit on my lunch and snapped me with their towels in the shower after P.E. Perhaps I should have referred to them as 'Your Highness' and all that humiliation would have gone away! Perhaps I shouldn't have ever opened a book at lunch time so it wouldn't get stolen. Of course I did it to myself! What an idiot I've been all these years to think that they didn't like me. If only I would have known that all that shit was their way of saying, "Hey bud, Let's be friends."---S.B. (Original Comment #4)
"The geeks here are merely expressing their opinions and relating stories of the abuse that they have had to suffer. I don't think you will find a single one of the people who have told their stories here going to school the next day and picking on the people that revile (and revile for good reasons I might add). Geeks are not doing unto others what has been done to them, they are merely speaking out against vicious, cruel and unfair treatment. As for outcasts making themselves outcasts, that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard! Most of the people here would love to fit in and have friends. I know I would have when I was in high school. Unfortunately, I didn't have the money to always have new, cool clothes or a great car. I was also not athletic or attractive. I also was not willing to deny my interests and hide my intelligence. I knew smart people in high school who did that and it made me sick as well as making them miserable. The fact is that a lot of people out there don't have any choice about being different. And saying that it is their own fault that they are rejected for being poor or ugly or sickly or shy or intelligent is a bunch of crap. I never had the choice to be popular and have friends, because I was never given the choice. I did not try to be antisocial, and I was nice to everyone until they failed to be nice.
"Geeks everywhere need to contact their local media purveyor and tell their story. Make the voices of the outcast heard! Contact lawyers and sue every son of a bitch that says a damaging word against. It's time for the politically correct revolution to include Geek! Vertically challenged persons, color diverse persons, size-enhanced persons have all had their day. This must be the socially diverse revolution. Organize your local geek youth!"---A. (Original Comment #5)
"The Trenchcoat Mafia is about racism and I hope some jock beats the crap out of any kids who can relate to them. I hated high school and am a steadfast geek (and proud of it) but I bear no association to these vile children from Colorado."---A.K. (Original Comment #6)
"Although I didn't have a rough time at all in high school, I think I can appreciate some of the problems that occur to "oddballs". High school nor society is ready to handle "special cases". Our country isn't very long on tolerance. It was found by puritans after all. It is far easier to run a school like a prison than to maintain a place of independent thought. Even teachers are kept on a leash. It is also easier to fault "deviant" lifestyles, like Goths, Geeks, or Gamers, than to admit the utter failure of our school systems to engender social skills in our children. It is possible that parents need to do this themselves? Please, mom and dad are already working two full time jobs. In a fiercely capitalistic culture in which "greed is good", one's status increases by the number of people walked on. The outcasts deserved to be abused because they make the rest us feel uncomfortable, right? I saw VP Gore talking about how we need to reduce the amount of violence we expose our children to. He didn't mention NATO's "relief efforts" in Kosovo as one of those harmful influences. Clearly, real violence isn't as harmful to children as Doom. What these Colorado kids lost wasn't their minds. It was hope. It's a shame what happened in Littleton. It's worse that our country won't learn squat from it."---J. (Original Comment #7)
"I was not popular in school. Most of my teachers didn't care if I was harassed in class, and very few did anything about it. (Though there were 3 teachers that come to mind that really understood me, and cared enough to take action, sometimes when I wouldn't.) I was known as the punching bag of my class, be it verbal or physical, sometimes both. My talent in technology, my love for computers, and my somewhat different physical appearance (I'm much shorter than most people) all helped establish me as an outcast in school. Time after time I'd find myself in the assistant principal's office for getting into a fight, or some other "routine" issue I seemed to have. I didn't make very good grades in school, and it wasn't because I couldn't do the work, but I was lazy. Middle school and high school bored me. (Hell, even my college classes are getting old.) I think the main reason I did so poorly in school, was the fact that I didn't want to be there, for whatever reason, be it academic or socially. There were days I would absolutely dread going to class, because there were others in that room that felt it necessary to torment me day after day."
"The stereotypical view places this type of problem exclusive to high school. However it starts long before that. My estimate, based on my own experience, is that it starts somewhere around late 4th grade. The adults of my time would say "Kids can be cruel." The fact is, as time passes, the kids in school are getting much worse. Days would go by where I'd come home from school literally in tears, because from the bus trip to school, during the day, and the bus ride home, I was bombarded with crap from other people. Let me state right now, that I do NOT condone what these kids did, and for them to have taken that step, there had to be some mental issues at work. However, because of my own experiences in school, I can understand what kind of a view these kids took toward school. As an example, I was passing my old middle school while walking one day, and there was a group of PE kids playing basketball. One of the kids got hit with the ball, and quite clearly, shouted "YOU MOTHER F**CKING SON OF A BITCH!" Not being deaf to his language, I was still shocked to be hearing this from a middle schooler. Stop blaming the Internet, stop blaming games like Quake or Doom, and stop blaming the entertainment industry. These are not the factors that are shaping kids into killers. For one, it is obviously a sort of mental problem that these kids had. Thankfully, the majority of people like me are able to deal with these kinds of things without totally going over the edge like this, but there are some people that aren't equipped to deal with it. These are the types of people that need to be helped. This is not accomplished by rounding up all the 'unpopular' people and getting rid of them, either. And as I said earlier, kids in school are getting worse every year. Another factor seems to be the parents of these kids. A bomb on the dresser for God's sake!! WAKE UP PEOPLE! Take more responsibilty for what your kids are doing, and stop looking for a scapegoat when something goes wrong. Damn that was a long-ass rant."---P. (Original Comment #8)
"I agree with the general sentiment here at Slashdot, namely: Those who wonder where the blame lies, should turn their accusing fingers around to themselves. The Net is not to blame, Doom is not to blame. Marilyn Manson is certainly not to blame. Indeed, "wholesome family values" are more to blame than anything, specifically the intolerance that accompanies the conformity with said values. When I was a freshman, I got thrown down a flight of stairs by the star running back. He didn't think I should be smoking, and politely tossed me. He got detention. I had shoulder pain for three weeks. Nice. My advice: Avoid Mesquite, Texas at all costs. Oh yeah, and fuck the man. Be different. Somebody with more skill than me needs to come up with a clever fake headline and hack the NY Times or something." ---R. (Original Comment #9)
"Someone (I call not me!) should make a "wanted" poster that kids can post in their schools:
WANTED: Non-conformists for crimes yet to be committed! There are members of our community who are threatening the bland conformity that we have tried so hard to create! Please report anyone matching the following description to your superiors so that these individuals can be "corrected." Remember, opinions you don't agree with are wrong!Warning Signs:
- odd clothing
- liking for weird, therefore bad, music
- heavy Internet use
- high intelligence
- seeking out others with similar tastes
- zits
- dislike for classes, teachers
- reclusiveness
- anything else?"
---Y.W. (Original Comment #10)
"If you aren't a member of a culture, you can't judge its values. You probably don't understand it enough to label it in that way. But if you want to talk to people with lifestyles that glorify violence, forget the people that look different, start counseling the football players. I live in a college town, and from reading police reports in the paper, I'd say they could use it. Look at how many athletes are in legal trouble. The last time I caught sports on the radio (not something I make a point of trying to do), 75% of the stories were about which athletes had been charged with what. So why don't you start counseling the football players, and leave the guys and girls in the chess club alone?"
"There are any number of groups that have been considered by the public at large to have "unwholesome", "troublesome", even "satanic" views. In many cases, these were outright lies. Ask a Pagan or a Wiccan (yes, a witch, we all know they've gotten lots of bad PR). By your standards, if the public thinks these things to be true, then the public would be justified in seeking these people out and sending them to counseling, investigating them, etc. After all, the public has to single out people who they suspect may have problems. In my opinion, and I think many here would agree, but the distinction hasn't come up, people who look and act differently aren't automatically superior. People, who look and act as they want to look and act, and more importantly, think, as they want to think, are automatically superior. These are the people with imagination, creativity, and in most cases courage. (If you don't think it takes courage to be different when you know you are going to catch hell for it, you probably never had the courage to try it.) By the way, if someone truly is a natural athlete, and enjoys athletics, and that's who he really is, fine. Be yourself. Do what thou wilt. Just let the rest of us do the same. What good is expressing ones individual identity if everyone else thinks you are a freak, and treats you as such? What are you without it? I would rather be abused and mistreated and be me, than to be one of them (i.e. anyone but who I am). That is a choice I have made, and a price I have paid. I even tried it. I played sports for a year. Actually, that wasn't bad. Lost weight, got in shape, etc. But I quit because I didn't like the company I was keeping. Primarily because, in order to fit in, I had to be like them, and that included abusing others."
"So yes, most of us could fit in if we really tried. But most of us probably just don't consider it worth the price. We also don't consider you, or anyone else, qualified to judge the cultural value of our choices. We shouldn't be made to suffer because our choices are different from yours. And I think it's a pretty safe bet that there was less suffering, degradation, and humiliation going on in the schools, there'd also be less violence."---D.R. He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice." --Mark Twain (Original Comment #11)
"Einstein was "different". Socrates was "different". Jimi Hendrix was "different". Linus Torvalds is "different". (Grin) The problem with stereotyping the way people act with the way people look is that there will always be people who break the stereotype. What does conformity accomplish? If everything is the same - what changes - where do new trends come from - where do we evolve mentally and as a society? There should always be a conflict, someone rocking the boat and changing the norm. Stagnation accomplishes nothing. If it were not for being "different", new ideas would not be as plentiful. You can't single out "suspects" of who is going to strike next. It could be anyone, it could be an honors student who snapped because he didn't study for a test and failed it and ruined his GPA. It could be a kid who has mental problems. It could be teacher whose wife just left him. It could be a principal who just can't take it anymore. Looking for people because how they look is making the innocent out to be guilty. Last time I checked in the United States the law was "innocent until proven guilty". (I can't speak for other countries.")
"I see the weak point you are trying to make that if you dress differently then you should expect criticism. And I think the problem here is lack of respect.... if I dress differently why should you disrespect me? Because I am different from you? That is no reason to disrespect someone, that just causes more problems and separation. The attitude is not "people who look and act differently are superior" no one is claiming superiority, all anyone wants is equality. That's like saying defending women's liberation is being "anti-male and pro-female domination". We should have the right to express ourselves in any manner (which does not hurt others) and not be condemned for it. The attitude is not "we are better"; the attitude is "you are not any better/worse."---D. (Original Comment #12)
"Being different isn't a bad thing. It's all about your morals and your core values. And, it's not about societal norms; it's about a respect for others and a responsibility for your own actions. Somewhere in America, these are being corrupted. It's not the media's fault, it's not a computer's fault, nor is it online gaming, Dungeons and Dragons, or any other outside influence. People need to stop blaming society and take responsibility for raising their kids. And why doesn't anyone realize this starts out early? If you haven't instilled a set of values in someone by the time they reach high school, I'm sorry, but you're not going to do it then, no matter how much time and money you throw at it."---A.C. (Original Comment #13)
"I'm not going to go on and on about my own story, but some of it's really very similar. What I'm left wondering is...what has changed? Geez, I'm an old 35 year-old now, and it sounds like when I was in school. The only really big difference is that now there are guns there. Weren't any when I went." (Note: try going to school when you're a geeky, butch-looking, smart woman from a huge multiracial family living in a working class macho hell town. The jocks ruled. Very scary place. Yuck. No guns, just physical/sexual violence instead."---D.B. (Original Comment #14)
Re:Just a thought... (Score:1)
this is not the reaction I would expect (Score:1)
Stop Complaining (Score:2)
Dropped?? (Score:1)
It's 20:11 EST when i post this... It was up maybe 10 or 15 minutes ago.
Re:Unibrows (Score:1)
ummm - I think you misunderstood him, perhaps?
Most people don't willingly "cultivate" such "distinctive features" as genetic defects. (or abnormalities, at least).
Are you saying it's correct for people to persecute this person because he was born with a genetic abnormality? I really prefer to think that you didn't understand what he was talking about.
Re:Opt out of the US public school system! (Score:1)
Take control of your life, 'cause no one else is going to.
It's not a stereotype if it's true. (Score:1)
The exception that proves the rule.
Bullshit. (Score:1)
What if you couldn't conform?
Perhaps the "in crowd" wears Tommy Hilfiger and you're lucky to have your older brother's faded levi's. Do you deserve to be beaten up?
Perhaps "somebody stronger than you" tells Jewish jokes and your grandfather died at the hands of the Nazis. Do you deserve to be thrashed for speaking up?
Not everybody wants to conform, not everybody is capable of conforming.
Re:this bothers me... (Score:1)
"the black and such that I am speaking of are not all of blacks..hence my mention of stereotypes. I know a lot about a lot of the blacks in my school, and they admit to me that they are doing it to make a statement..and they do! not just with their clothing and music, but with their actions." (whistling while they pick cotton no doubt ;) "Often times blacks are the trouble makers. (this is not all the time, but it is a lot of the time. I do not shun these blacks, nor do i stay away from blacks. I often talk to blacks and hang out with a few blacks. I am not speaking for all blacks, but a lot of blacks are the way i was talking about. and yes..in my school...whites are counterculture..but noone seems to care bout whites. :) (just wait till whites rule the world someday)"
Nope. If someone's a dickhead they are a dickhead, regardless of whether they identify with goth, wanker, or hippy or sport billy or billy corgan. You're drag the lines of responsibility through "goths" and validate yourself by saying it's not all of them that you have a problem with, only some - the trouble makers.
What one goth or geek does has nothing to do with what another has done.
Re:Jedi Mind Trick? (Score:2)
The point of the Hellmouth series is that folks doing recreational stuff like listening to goth music, roleplaying, maybe getting gothed-up a party, were and are getting a raw deal from other kids who thought they were taking this seriously when in fact it's just a bit of fun. But when you DO take it seriously - well, it definitely is time to call in the shrinks.
Oh, and a quick tip for any parents whose kids are being bullied - send them to learn karate, or taekwondo, or any other martial art. In a disciplined environment (and martial arts classes are disciplined, unlike schools), they can learn how to defend themselves effectively. This is a great confidence booster, and it also teaches restraint, ie. only using it when needed, so the kid doesn't turn into a bully themselves. Of course, if the bullies are themselves going to the same class then you make sure you get a different class! Eventually someone's going to try something, the kid'll flip out, and the bully will be in a world of hurt (been there, done that). It does tend to discourage the others!
Grab.
Who to blame? (Score:1)
Counterpoint (Score:3)
I sort of disagree. My understanding of human nature is (obviously) radically different from that of most
But simply put, there are people who are, as an inborn trait, more conformist than other, and this is a OK thing. These people (who are a sizable percentage of the population) contribute some good and important things to society, arising out of the same traits which make them conformist: they're wonderful at defending and protecting people, ideas, and things (though you may have to work at it to get them aimed in the right dirrection); their very change resistance makes them a kind of fly-wheel on society, which protects us from precipitous govermental overthrow for trivial reasons; at their best they are hardworking, loyal, etc.
But they aren't creative, iconoclastic, daring, brilliant, etc. That's not their gift. Trying to make them so is as unjust as trying to make geeks to be conformist.
So we don't need to teach non-conformity to all our kids. That would be unfair to conformists. What we do need to teach our kids is to respect differences, and even more importantly, how to act respectful.
We need for conformists to be raised to think of their non-conformist classmates in terms of "Gee, you are a threateningly weird-ass geek, but, damn, you're our threateningly weird-ass geek." We need for non-conformists -- that means you and me, dude -- to be raised to be just as tolerant, and not to sneer at the conformists: "Gee, you are all cookie-cutter people, but, damn, you're fine cookie-cutter people."
It needs to be equally OK for people to be conformist or non-conformist or to move back and forth as they see fit. That's justice.
Look at this, the geeks are also prejudiced. (Score:1)
That's from the very first "response" listed in the article. I would just like to thank a fellow geek for doing what they hate, labeling and stereotyping. I wrestled for 6 years. I was pretty damn good at it too. I suppose that I shouldn't complain TOO much, I admit, as I was the only person on the wrestling team taking AP classes. When the county tournament rolled around senior year, we had to leave school early so we could get to the tournament when it started (this was on a friday). My last class was AP Economics, I told him I was leaving early, and he didn't understand why. He had gotten a note saying that all the wrestlers need to leave early, but he disregarded it because, "Well, in all my years of teaching here I have never had a wrestler in AP Economics."
Ok, I'm going to complain anyways. It's hypocritical to complain about being stereotyped as something that you feel you are not if you are just doing it right back. Don't be so close-minded as to just look at what someone does, or what sport they play, or what music they listen to, or what clothes they wear and instantly assume things about them. It's so easy to become like those you hate/those that "oppressed" you. Don't do it. Open your mind and look at someone for who they are, not what they are.
Bah. No one's going to listen to me anyways.
Re:JonKatz (Score:1)
Oh shit, now I've probably /.'ed it...
(end comment) */ }
Ahh...Nerdom (Score:1)
Re:Jon Katz (Score:1)
a comment (Score:1)
Re:Columbine is nothing new (Score:1)
Re:this bothers me... (Score:4)
Just because someone doesn't look the same as you, or doesn't listen to the same music as you, does not mean they are out to cause problems. Perhaps a large percentage of the people you classify as "weird" cause problems, but I can promise you this: the clothing and music are not what makes them act that way.
Perhaps the "counterculture" brings a lot of trouble upon themselves. But all I see in that situation is a lack of acceptance from people in your school of the counterculture.
If I were you, I would try talking to some of these "different" people. They probably have a lot of interesting things to say. And don't forget, being a geek is often counterculture.
Re:Time Move on? Time for Next Step? (Score:1)
My final point -- if you're sick of Katz's stuff, I dare you to show him up and take it all to a whole new level!
<<
Or you can just click that box on the customization page, so you never see his stuff again
what the real problem is: (Score:2)
sure, i didn't have all the money to afford a fancy car, fuck, i didn't even have my drivers license until a year after i graduated from high school. i listened to marilyn manson. i didn't wear abercrombie and fitch. i hated "the man".
but...
i was friends with most of the football team, the senior prom queen was a good friend of mine. i went to football games but during my study halls and lunches, you'd find me in good old room 109, the main computer lab. i think the problem here is kids that want to be different just for the sake of being different. every time i hear somebody say "non-conformist" it makes my skin crawl. why? not because i don't respect what they do, it's because i don't respect why they do it. they aren't being different because they enjoy what they're doing - they are being different because they enjoy being different. they like to be able to call themselves "non-conformists". i also think there is a trend among such 'non-conformists' to label the ones that they see as 'conformists' as being inferior to them. how many times has one of the 'non-conformists' started complaining about the way their school works, and spitefully brought up the actions of the jocks? happens almost every time. the jocks are "the man" in the opinion of these non-conformists. they are popular, so they are intellectually inferior, the story goes. fuck that.
all we need is a little love in the world
Re:10 year reunion (Score:1)
Re:this is not the reaction I would expect (Score:1)
Magic and Chess (Score:1)
When I was in high school, some friends of mine and I tried to start a Magic: the Gathering club. I don't play the game anymore, but at the time, I was really into it. Unfortunately, due to parents' complaints about the "satanic nature" of the game, the school board refused to allow us to have such an organization. Needless to say, I was outraged. I told the story to my parents, who thought it was just as ridiculous. My mother decided to write an anonymous letter to the school board. This is the letter she wrote:
Dear School Board Members:
I have heard a rumor that some of the students at your school have proposed to start a chess club.
I wish to voice my strong objections to the use of school facilities for this purpose. In my opinion, chess is a vile, anti-democratic game that undermines American values by promoting feudalism, human sacrifice of queens, and demonic possession of castle towers.
Chess is full of insidious symbolism that subtly undermines the mental well-being of those who indulge in it. For example, the piece called a "knight" is symbolized by a horse head, confusing our youngsters' concept of human identity with bestial symbols used by organized crime. Furthermore, clergymen are maligned by portraying bishops as sly individuals whose diagonal movement indicates that their motives are never straightforward but always hidden and devious.
Chess is a dreadfully violent game. Children are taught to sacrifice and murder with callous disregard for the sanctity of individual life, especially that of the poor, who are treated as nothing more than pawns.
The origin of this deadly epidemic can be traced to the godless Russians, who, when they saw the decline of their own onerous communist government being caused by this evil influence, dealt a parting blow to the American democracy by infecting us with chess. However, we have one advantage over the Soviets that will allow us to succeed in stamping out chess where they failed -- FREEDOM!
Some may say that chess is "just a game". Don't be fooled by this! The people who play chess may think that it is just a game, but after hours and hours of play they become addicted to it and lose sight of reality. Pretty soon they'll be shooting up drugs and jumping out of windows to land on innocent bystanders.
Enough is enough! This MUST STOP!!!!
We don't need to hear this.... (Score:1)
no, you missed the point. (Score:1)
Simply because a stereotype fits MOST of the time doesn't mean it fits ALL of the time, and for that reason I feel that you should not use stereotypes. I don't think I contradicted myself.
Moller
Re:this bothers me... (Score:1)
Re:Opt out of the US public school system! (Score:1)
Oh another note, I think Jon Katz has beaten this post so far into the ground that the sign itself is underground. It is time to move on. If you must, start a new site called www.highschoolgeeks.com or something.
Do you want to be liked or respected? (Score:2)
Regardless of how you treat others, they will still hold stereotypes of you and their reactions to you will fit accordingly. Rather than being nice all the time and letting yourself get stomped on, I'd rather make it a point of ignoring them / carrying on with what you want to do. If someone is going to learn to respect you as a person, you can't win that respect by being nice - you can only do so by making them appreciate why you are the way you are.
Most people that dump on other people for any reason do it because they want to feel important, nothing new there. If you simply go along with a dumb-looking smile you've already been put in your place.
What I found to be the best method for dealing with people is to always try to work with common terms, and if you can't, then avoid them.
I think being flexible is much more important than being nice/patient. If you can show people why you should be valued as a person, then you've already done that much more to make your immediate community a better place.
And it doesn't work simply in one direction - like you said, everyone is ignorant in some way. If you can show others the merits of what makes you an individual, that might just change the way they look at people in general.
I'm very familiar with your type, always quick with a handshake and a smile. In the end though you're doing it just to be liked out of principle, and there is quite a difference between being liked and being respected.
What is it with this jock business? (Score:2)
I'm not saying that athletic types are saints and that they never ever do anything to anyone, I just think I'm seeing a tendency to single them out as a group and demonize them here. That sort of a witch hunt isn't much different from a geek/nerd type being persecuted by his school.
Lee
The right reasons? (Score:2)
Sure, if you view life as being a game, then I guess you got what you wanted - you're so far removed from the rest of society that you've attained your uber-geek status and now no matter how much disrespect you are shown it won't matter because you're the pinnacle of society.
Give me a break.
When I become a doctor I sure as hell won't be wearing my degree as a badge to assert myself in public, social oppression works on every level. In my opinion, there is nothing that makes me feel more human then going back home and spending time with my uneducated, unsatisfied friends and still enjoying the fact that we can still relate and maintain good friendships. Satisfaction != Success.
Complaints (Score:2)
I'll get modded down to hell for this, but oh well....
I'm not trying to be inciteful here, but people, pay attention!
Why is Jon rehashing this old stuff? Because it's excerpts from the book. The book that many people complained took people's comments without asking. These posts are both to give the slashdot populace a preview of the book, and to allow anyone who had a comment in there and doesn't want it a chance to speak out.
In addition, this wasn't a front page story. It was one line in a Slashback for God's sake. And you (by which I mean the people griping) chose to click the link and read it. Nobody pointed a gun to your head and forced you to go here (and if they did, you have other, larger, problems to deal with). If you don't want to discuss the articles, then don't!
Katz's ego is too big - look, he's referring to himself in the third person! No, he's not. In the original article [slashdot.org] (revisited) even though it seems to have been posted by Jon Katz, CmdrTaco did the writeup. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to conclude that may also be true in this case.
In short, the people who are complaining here are complaining about nothing, and for no reason.
So why am I here, if all I'm doing is complaining? I read the article to both revisit the hellmouth series and to see if any new discussion had crept up - it's been a while since columbine, has the fallout faded away yet, or are schools more authoritative than ever? The usual kind of questions that come up. Instead, I'm bombarded by people who aren't paying attention or shouldn't even be in this article in the first place.
I came to slashdot back in the day for discussion and news, not misplaced complaints over simple misunderstandings.
Re:Complaints (Score:1)
Um, excuse me ignorant fool, but this was a front page story for approximately one hour. That was the period of time during which most of us were doing our bitching.
Re:Complaints (Score:1)
Sorry, not all of us can monitor slashdot 24 hours a day before composing our flames. That said, I'd probably have been complaining too if I'd seen it on the front page, especially since (if I recall correctly) the other three didn't make it.
Looking at your comment below, though, you've got a very good point about it possibly being hurtful to people. We didn't really hear a lot from people who said 'can we not bring this up' not because it had already been posted, but because it was disturbing to them and they'd just as soon let it go.
That's the kind of discussion I was hoping for :)
Re:drop this (Score:2)
Can we please drop this already? Bringing it up again and again isn't doing any good.
Posting it here again is indeed preaching to the choir. There's a good reason for this, which you'd know if you'd been following.
As I recall reading, it goes something about like this:
- Slashdot and Katz's inbox get flooded with these messages
- Katz really wants to help improve this
rather nasty and abusive situation, and
it's an uphill battle, because the mainsteam
"common wisdom" is to "crack down" on geeks,
and target video games, movies, etc. Katz wants
to spread the word, somehow...
- Katz assembles them together and wants to publish in print, to reach a wider audience,
hoping that maybe it'll find its way to teachers
and parents and maybe, just maybe, they'll get
a wake up call.
- People flame Katz for reprinting without permission, claiming that many authors were
anonymous and under age, and all who posted
would only have intended their words to be
publically visiable on slashdot.
- Katz backs off, and says he'll post the
chapters to slashdot (the original forum where
the authors intended their words to appear).
He says it'll be at the bottom the the slashback
articles, so that only people who really are
interested will scroll down to it. Katz
publically requests that people who posted
anonymously keep an eye out for their words and
send him an email if they do or don't approve
of reprinting.
- More flames directed at Katz, because its
redundant, old news, opening old wounds, etc, etc, etc.
Katz, if you're reading this, I hope it's not getting to you. I know you get flamed a lot (I've done it from time to time, but not for lame-ass reasons like this).Maybe for Hellmouth Part 5, you should add a little reminder of the history behind the assembly of these articles into the book, like you did for part 1.
It's been 12 years since I was in high school, but I can clearly recall the hostility. I can also recall a whole lot of teachers, admins, and parents turning a blind eye, blissfully ignorant. I can recall some making efforts, but ultimately giving up and more or less forgetting they ever knew anything nasty was occuring, on a daily basis, all around them.
Teachers, admins and parents need a wake-up call. They need these Hellmouth stories shoved in their faces. They need to be constantly reminded. This is a tough problem, and the best way to never make progress is to be unaware of the problems and, believe it or not, ignore and misunderstand them even when they turn into unimaginable violence.
The Hellmouth articles, in a printed paperback, sitting on the nightstands of teachers and parents across the country is a worthwhile persuit. Maybe, just maybe, these well intentioned, but ignorant folks will crack the book open every now and then, read a hald dozens messages, and the next day open their eye to the hateful and often violent behavior that's all around them.
Katz, I certainly hope you manage to get these words into a paperback for the net-illiterate folks out there. It's a long shot, but maybe they can learn to see what's been going on for many many years, they they've been too blind to see.
Maybe someday these hostile social circumstances will be diffused. Maybe someday schools will have an environment were mean and nasty behavior is rare or non-existant. Maybe there are solutions or ways to improve the situation. All these Maybes today are somewhere between Unlikely to Impossible, because the truth is that most of the players involved are ignorant and blind to what's around them.
With some luck the Hellmouth in printed and widely published form can help overcome the ignorance and just might lead, eventually, to some improvement.
Counter-Counterpoint (Score:1)
When the inevitable paradigm shift comes, the conformists will make sure that there is hell to pay, will target the non-conformists and persecute them, and then, a few decades later, will settle into the new world view with as much complacency as before. Conformity is not about providing "balance", it's all about "drag".
And it surely is not a "gift" to be unconscious and uncritical.
What I am saying is that while jumping from one world view to another--without any "drag" to hold back change--would indeed be a bad thing, but we don't have to PROMOTE conformity by punishing those who don't fit in. Conformity will ALWAYS be with us, we just have to make sure that those who have a different vision of themselves, their relation to the group, and the world around them should be given the opportunity to develop without the misery that marginalization brings.
Free thought, free speech, and free spirits are a good thing. Being locked into a box and a role by your peers is definitely not.
very sad (Score:2)
"That jon katz inspired"
Posting to your own self prepetuating ego, that is sad.
I'm not a troll, I'm flaming you. Why you ask? I think your problem is not what you have to say, but how you say it... a bit more of the interesting stuff: fact, and a little less ego, ok?
drop this (Score:1)
Frightening (Score:1)
*Snicker* (Score:1)
--The Kid
Webmaster, The Citadel [thecitadel.net]
JonKatz (Score:2)
Posted By JonKatz... ..."
"Here are some more of the slashdot comments (and sobering emails) that Jon Katz inspired when he
Just a thought... (Score:2)
Jon Katz (Score:3)
Time Move on? Time for Next Step? (Score:2)
I'm a geek, also suffered, blah blah blah...
Hellmouth was great, it let us all share and reflect, but it didn't change the world. A year later it still isn't chaning the world. Some people are even posting that they're sick of it.
So maybe it's time to move on. I'm not saying forget about geek injustice entirely, but give Hellmouth a rest. It's still pretty powerful, but will lose it's ability to change things the more we drive it into the ground.
So all of you who are still angry and still abused? How about the next step? Hellmouth is the rallying point, and from there maybe change can be made. What about something similar to the Americans with Disabilities Act or Civil Rights Act? Why not organize politically and move for a law barring judgement based on culture, style, preference? Perhaps someone has a better idea for the next step?
My final point -- if you're sick of Katz's stuff, I dare you to show him up and take it all to a whole new level!
J
Re:Look at this, the geeks are also prejudiced. (Score:1)
This is someone who I look up to. The fact that he is a wresler never came to mind.
People need to learn not to be so quick to judge!
Jedi Mind Trick? (Score:1)
Re:I know how it feels (Score:1)
Re:this bothers me... (Score:1)
Re:Frightening (Score:1)
Jon, if you have more 'chapters' of Hellmouth in this format, please for the love of all that is good skip them and post a chapter with some meat in it.
Adam
Re:Hu? (Score:1)
Timothy, who posted it for Katz, made a mistake and set it to the main page.
acceptance of difference ? (Score:1)
Unibrows (Score:1)
You can't expect to cultivate such a distinctive feature and not expect reactions. I'm not trying to be combative here, I think it's fair to expect that when you do something out of the ordinary, you'll get good and bad responses from people, and the bad responses will be more often vocalized.
I have a cap with a solar-panal (2, actually) and a fan on it which I use to keep my forehead cool during the summer months. I've recieved many complements (mostly from the technically inclined) but also many insults. But I expect such things when I do something out-of-the-ordinary and distinctive.
Not saying it's right, but it can be expected.
Re:The right reasons? (Score:1)
If people would take more time to consider the personal relevance that a given activity might have for another, perhaps they wouldn't make foolish comments like this. Not that I don't appreciate the irony that this post contains (though I don't think the poster realized it).
It certainly doesn't detract from the kicks that I get from taunting my former social opponents.
Take your medication and go back to work.
Re:Hu? (Score:1)
but the post stated ...
Oh well - just being pedantic I guess - or was JK a little over eager for the front page after allRe:The right reasons? (Score:2)
If there is any irony in this thread it is that you're the one who thinks that people should treat him special because of his position in life and at the same time have resentment for people who displayed the same social behaviour towards him in the past. Sounds like you're no better off then they were in the first place - sure, you're personal glory is at its pinnacle but in the end what will that matter?
If you're so concerned with the relevance that your given activity has on others and not the importance that stems from its own virtues then that is all it is to you - a popularity contest - it's not a judgement, it's an observation. Just because those people used to be the judges and are out of the loop now you get to parade around like a peacock trying to justify why it was ok to have been treated like shit for 4 years.
I don't pride myself in slumming with the huddled masses , I pride myself in looking at everyone as equal human beings. Don't try to give yourself some false sense of nobility in proposing that I'm doing something extraordinary by feeling that I'm qualified to pass judgement on someone else's behavior, I'm not even playing your game so there is no one to impress. The point of the matter is that you're the one that continues to perpetuate the "I'm so important, everyone look at how special I am attitude" and when someone points it out you automatically assume that the only reason they're doing so is because they want to seem higher up on the scale then you - I'm advocating treating people as equals, remember? I'm not gaining from critiquing the shallowness of your outlook, but anyone who reads my comment might take the opportunity to think about how they would like people to interact, and in that sense, everyone will gain. We live in a society, believe it or not, and the only way that people will make social progress is by criticizing the behaviour of others. If people didn't stand up once in a while we would be living in a society with a lot more oppression than we do now. If you don't agree with my critisicm, fine - I'm not forcing you to respect others, but simply branding me as another player in your pathetic social drama isn't going to change the light in which people view your parent post. Lets face it, you wouldn't post a comment like that unless you were fuelling your ego, expecting cheers from the rest of the /. 'l337 crowd... the fact that you didn't provoke any positive responses must really suck, to put it in the verbosity of the huddled masses.
Re:The right reasons? (Score:1)
There are those who play the game, realize it, but have no choice. There are those who play the game, but claim not to, because the game is ugly, dirty, and depressing. And there are those who play the game, see it as so, and try their best to enjoy it as much as they can.
I would be careful about your preaching. It is a giveaway and will put you in an uncomfortable position when you come to the realization that you are mired in this mess as much as me, the "tormentors" from high school, and everyone else.
You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake...
Re:The right reasons? (Score:2)
Sure, I'm preaching here, but the fact of the matter is that you're trolling me along. I think your 2nd last line put it dead on:
It is a giveaway and will put you in an uncomfortable position when you come to the realization that you are mired in this mess as much as me, the "tormentors" from high school, and everyone else.
Good insight. That was the reason why I responded to you in the first place - just because I'm working against the grain and you're flowing with it doesn't mean that I'm naive about the situation.
Re:The right reasons? (Score:1)
You have my respect for not igniting, as many do when prodded just a bit. It's been a pleasure.
Re:The right reasons? (Score:2)
This last post really made my day (I've been feeling kind of bad about this thread cause I thought it would crumble into a flame war), thanks for being level about things and reinstilling some faith in the fact that some people here on /. still like having a good discussion.
I dream of a world... (Score:1)
All hail the mighty Penguin! The Linux Pimp [thelinuxpimp.com]
John Katz - Still Profound (Score:2)
How long is /. going to beat this dead horse? If I have to listen to one more outcast teenager cry about how different they are from all those other outcast teenagers, I think I'm gonna puke.
Why don't they get together and form a support group or something?
Oh yeah. How much more self serving can you get than...
Here are some more of the slashdot comments (and sobering emails) that Jon Katz inspired when he started writing about the frustrations of high-school life in Voices From The Hellmouth and subsequent columns.
We've heard all those voices. Again and again and again. Please tell them to shut-the-fuck up.
Now I'm sober AND inspired.
--
Why is Jon talking in the third person? (Score:2)
Ian
So when can we moderate stories? (Score:1)
I know how it feels (Score:1)
Re:Jon Katz (Score:1)
Uhh...he's a journalist. That's what they do...
Opt out of the US public school system! (Score:2)
Second, If you care about your children, send them to a non-coeducational Jesuit-run college-prep high school.
I don't care what religion you are (and neither do the Jesuits). Those guys know how to teach- I learned to be an atheist, a programmer, a productive member of society, etc. from the Jesuits.
10 year reunion (Score:1)
It was quite an experience. Most interesting of all were the folks who were the more popular sorts during the high school years. Many of them were fat. Some worked in business doing sales or whatnot. A number were involved in real estate. A few were already divorced. Oddly, none seemed to be especially satisfied with what they had accomplished in their post-high school days.
I, having been a steadfast geek since before HS, made sure everyone addressed me as "Doctor."
It goes down as one of my most satisfying high school experiences.
Columbine is nothing new (Score:1)
Also got to love people who make fun of us for pointing these things out like that inconsiderate jerk a couple posts up. Please, try to justify why it's okay for people to be abused because they don't fit the jock stereotype <I>and they don't even try to</I>.
If you're still in high school, do anything to piss them off, its worth it.
Re: Good point! Mod up- (Score:1)
This never-ending series of Hellmouth articles really demonstrates how deeply the victim-culture has ingrained itself in our ways of thinking. "I did something someone stronger than me didn't approve of, and they beat me for it!" If you don't want to face the consequences of a situation, why on earth would you put yourself into that situation?
God, these people are such whiners and self-serving assholes, it's no wonder they got beat up as children (eg, "I'm so smart, I can out-smartass all the jocks put together!")
How about the incessant trolls? (Score:1)
Boo Hoo (Score:1)
The best revenge is living well
Re:I know how it feels (Score:1)
On a side note:
When I was 9 or 10, my dad and I were watching a documentary on the Vietnam war. I asked him if the Vietnamese were our enemy and he said yes. After thinking about this for a few moments, I asked him if we were the Vietnamese's enemy. I don't remember his answer to that, but the paradigm shift had already happened. I learned the most important thing I have
Anyway, that was my important lesson: different is not bad and similar is not good. While I am more comfortable around people who are similar to me, I don't feel justified in belittling someone else's beliefs. Not that I don't - I am only human, after all, but I try not to
(Incidentally, I was both a computer guru and an athlete in high school. It was fun
Rebel against conformity (Score:3)
The fact is that we all want to belong. It is a built in drive. Belonging = comfort and esteem. What's not to like? The problem is that how do you define the criteria for who belongs and who doesn't? Race? Religion? Fashion-sense?
I find most single-issue groups dull. Stoners, Jocks, GearHeads, English majors... they all require you to "earn" your way into their specialized dialects and customs. Geeks are no different. "Conform or be cast out" to quote Geddy Lee.
Conformity is a sin against your human spirit. It may be more convenient in the short term, but it will lead you to a life of regret and self-doubt. I think the nastiest people are the ones who are the least secure in their place.
One example is the girl who executed (the only word that applies) Rena Virk in Victoria, British Columbia. She had to make a reputation for herself as a bad-assed bitch, so she ended up holding a "loser" under water with her foot while she smoked a cigarette. This is merely a logical extension of the trend: make your rep on the backs of the outcasts, so make sure there are plenty of outcasts to choose from.
What we have to do is teach non-conformity to our children. Unfortunately, in America, as elsewhere, this is not going to happen, because nobody wants a generation of kids that think for themselves.
Nuff said.
*sigh* (Score:1)
this bothers me... (Score:1)
What really bugs me is how the geeks are being treated in my school. When I go to the computer lab, I telnet to my home machine and use pine and lynx and stuff to surf the web and check my email because I hate using the macs and the limited surfing that the school allows. One time I was approached by a librarian who accused me of hacking and kicked me out of the library. I think the biggest problem is the people that make judgements about things they don't understand at all! THe librarian was an imbecile and was punishing me for knowing a little something about computers....
What? (Score:1)
The columbine killers had friends and family. They were ridiculed just as every other person in the US public school system is. They simply lacked the facilities to sanely cope with life. They were mistakes... bluntly put.
This is not flamebait or a troll, just my honest opinion.
-CoG
"And with HIS stripes we are healed"