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The Media

Middle Media 151

For years, Old Media dismissed electronic competitors as frivolous and temporal. Then New Media appeared to be burying its predecessors for good. It appears both notions may have been wrong. The boundaries between new and old media are getting fuzzy, as a hybrid Middle Media emerges between the two. (Read more.)

Since the rise of electronic media like TV and the Net, the idea of New and Old media has become entrenched in the culture. Conventional wisdom says that the former will ultimately and completely replace the latter.

That doesn't seem to be happening, though interactive media are ascending rapidly, and the influence and monopoly of traditional media have diminished. But there are signs all over of a new, hybrid, and probably permanent Middle Media.

Old media are generally defined as newspapers, magazines, publishing and network TV, controlled by small groups of gatekeepers who make decisions about what's news and what's not. New media, by contrast, are interactive, with choices made by their consumers, and they're digitally or electronically transmitted. In general, they are much freer and more opinionated.

But technology and the way people use it is so inherently unpredictable that that rigid distinctions between the two are becoming less useful each day. Most "old" media now have "new" appendages, adjuncts and outlets, especially on the Web. And the people using new media still acquire information and use culture in traditional forms - they go to megaplexes, read magazines, follow books.

The idea of "new" or "old" media may not hold too much longer, just Middle Media that combine elements of both, giving information-seekers many more options.

One small but telling example was reported in American Demographic magazine's March issue, which reported that dot.com companies - Garden.com, Wine.com, Tavolo.com and jewelry retailer Miadora.com, among others -- are successfully experimenting with print catalogues. People buy online, but they want to see some paper and pictures first.

"There's something about flipping through a catalog that can't be replaced by the online experience," says Rich Fazekas, research director at W.A. Dean & Associates, a San Francisco catalog consulting firm that's just completed an informal study of e-commerce players launching catalogs. "If [e-tailers] want to grow as a sales channel, catalogs can be a vital part of their business."

Another indication of an emerging Middle Media is the fact that the journalistic move from paper to e-news has gone from a trickle to a flood. Reporters are leaving newsrooms all over the country to work for online information sites. These reporters, leaving papers like the Wall Street Journal and New York Times and smaller papers in chains like Gannett, are bringing traditional journalistic sensibilities to e-news, which until now has been much more free and raucous than the offline press.

Just a few years ago, most retailers thought catalogs would disappear as consumers browsed through graphically - advanced online displays.

The rise in catalogs in conjunction with dot.coms is interesting because it demonstrates again that people are often less absolute in their technological choices than the techno-pundits and seers predict.

The music industry is hysterical about online music distribution, but there is little or no evidence that their "property" is being hi-jacked en masse by digital thieves. Last week, the industry announced it earned a record $14+ billion in l999. Some newspapers - USA Today, the New York Times, the Washington Post - are belatedly realizing that the Net doesn't necessarily replace them, but can often offer new venues for breaking news, new vehicles for identifying and acquiring subscribers, and can generally promote interest in their existing formats. They may no longer hold monopolies on news and information, but they still have a significant slice of the pie.

In a Slashdot discussion last week about the future of newspapers, it was obvious that many people here, for example, valued print news in certain circumstances, particularly if papers would offer more focused and in-depth information on subjects like technology and culture, as well as local news.

Publishers approaching meltdown about the future of books can visit any Borders or Barnes & Noble, where salespeople constantly suggest that customers find books online, and where it's also clear that people aren't even close to giving up reading words on paper even if they also read words on computer screens. Although online book sales are growing on sites like Fatbrain, Amazon and BN.com, so are the sales of books in stores. The technological absolutism invoked by the rise of the Net - everything will go digital - is not coming to pass.

Certain information formats can offer a sensual, contextual appeal that's impossible to quantify, and was not predicted. Consumers have fiercely resisted getting newspapers or books via digitized tablets. Convenience and speed are critical measures, but not the only ones. People enjoy browsing through catalogs they can see and hold, it seems, rather than simply buying everything online. They cling to the experience of congregating at malls and in bookstores, even when many of the items sold there are readily available on the Net and the Web. Movie admissions were up sharply last year, along with music revenues, and chain bookstores made huge profits.

The symbiotic boom in catalogs and online shopping may foreshadow the way future media will work. Media may not, in fact, be old-fashioned or new-fangled, but co-dependent. E-news and information can feed off print news and information, one stimulating interest in the other.

And the form of media might vary in terms of content as well. Information about politics, for example, might always be centered around print publications -- a handful of newspapers and magazines -- which are to many people better vehicles for presenting complex issues. Music distribution seems sure to move almost completely onto the Web, along with elements of radio and TV. But even though DVDs are booming, it seems unlikely people will forego the experience of going to theaters, which are also booming. Breaking news is clearly moving exclusively to e-media, as it is fast and tailor-made for hypertext.

Other kinds of coverage -- pop culture, health, investigative reporting, strong writing -- might always remain popular to consumers on paper.

Even though that pattern seems to be emerging, the truth is, nobody knows for sure. Interactivity has become one of the most powerful ideas in media history, no longer a fad but an expectation. As much as gatekeepers, politicians and journalists hate it, it isn't going away.

People expect to contribute to and participate in their information media, and to hold pundits, columnists and other information-givers accountable for what they report, think and write.

But as Garden.com's sweet-smelling catalogs show, the boundaries between old and new media are getting tougher to find. What is visible is a new and hybrid information structure, a new media species all its own.

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Middle Media

Comments Filter:
  • by Foogle ( 35117 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:04AM (#1240644) Homepage
    Aside from the (cough cough) interesting ASCII art posted here, I don't see anything interesting about this article. This isn't a Anti-Katz comment -- I just don't get the significance of what he's saying.

    Is there any? What kind of a genius does it take to figure out that people don't like to change things overnight? People like to smooth things over with gradual change. I know I do, and I know most businesses do too. This isn't a "middle media", it's just two medias in one.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • by Anonymous Coward
    Middle media. What in da hell is Katz talking about this time? Hypermedia -- it's been around since the 80's, the 'Net has just meant it gets updated quicker & can have more peer to peer interaction/info sharing like on this message board. Newspaper's'll never die unless they're outlawed. Books will always be made. Interactivity will build and expand on the groundwork of hypermedia, not this middle media crap. TV's & movies'll be supplanted in different ways.
  • so newspapers are dead, but there's something about reading a catalog that can never be replaced?

    do you pick your ideas out of a hat, or are you using a ouija board?
  • by spiralx ( 97066 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:17AM (#1240648)

    Publishers approaching meltdown about the future of books can visit any Borders or Barnes & Noble, where salespeople constantly suggest that customers find books online, and where it's also clear that people aren't even close to giving up reading words on paper even if they also read words on computer screens. Although online book sales are growing on sites like Fatbrain, Amazon and BN.com, so are the sales of books in stores. The technological absolutism invoked by the rise of the Net - everything will go digital - is not coming to pass.

    I doubt very much that books will become obsolete for quite a long time, even when the E-book finally becomes a reality for consumers. While some texts, particularly scientific textbooks, could do with the concept of hyperlinked sections, the majority of books would gain no real benefit to being digitised. Yes, it might be nice to search a book for a particular passge, but it's hardly essential for the enjoyment of the book.

    While I love computers, there's nothing more frustrating than trying to read something that's more than 100 or so lines on a monitor. It just doesn't feel right and hurts your eyes, even on this brand-new 19" monitor. And I don't think curling up on your bed with your E-book will take off.

    And I'm not even going to go in to the phenomenon of toilet books - you know, those books full of easily digestible sections which sit in the bathroom for when you need a quick read :)

  • by dsplat ( 73054 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:20AM (#1240649)
    I am a frequent violator of the admonition to not start new threads, but to reply to old ones. The reason is that I hate to just say, "Me too." In this case, I really want to. Foogle has brought up the valid point that people are slow to change. The same transition happened between LPs and CDs. There was an entrenched market. There was an investment in the old technology. That kept the old medium alive and widely available for longer.

    Today, you can still find new LPs, but not for ever album. Their market is mostly audiophiles who can hear and understand the difference. It is a limited market. CDs have advantages in size and durability (at least short term durability). There are also people who never replaced their turntables with CD players because they had ceased to embrace change (the grandma market, although that is a stereotype).

    The same thing is happening with print media. There are people who will take electronic over print text whenever they have the choice. All it would take to push me into that camp is the right technology for reading the text. I'd want a full general purpose computer, running Linux, FreeBSD or Hurd with connectivity to my desktop machine. But I might settle for electronic text that is portable between a lesser handheld machine and a desktop with those capabilities. However, there continues to exist a market for print text. Even if it is losing market share as a percentage, the growth in the market for text in all forms may compensate for that (I haven't seen the numbers).

    Eventually, when there is an established model for selling electronic text to a mass market, and a large enough portion of the market will buy them some texts will cease to be sold in printed form, at least initially. That will be the steep portion of the curve of the decline of the Old Media. That will be the one period in which it will be suicide to be in the Old Media business exclusively. I wish I knew how far off the start of that stage of the decline is. We might already be there for all I know, but I doubt it.
  • by bludstone ( 103539 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:20AM (#1240650)
    how about indymedia [indymedia.org]?
    adbusters [adbusters.org]
    the onion [theonion.com] :-)
    would slashdot be considered an alternative media source? probably?
    anyone else got some good outside-the-mainstream media sources?
    I don't know about you, but i still get all my news from everything 2 [everything2.org] :-)


  • I don't see anything interesting about this article.

    Well, a summary would be:

    "Despite the recent huge push for everyone to get on to the internet, there seems to be a similar move from the internet to phisical media"

    I was quite interested by the observation that some internet companies are experimenting with paper catalogues (Its only a matter of time before Amazon comes up with a "technology" that automates printing a catalogue[1])

    The obvious conclusion is both media will merge.

    [1]Just in case Amazon DOES try to patent this, here's some prior art
    I've got an idea for a system thats connected to a database that can print paper catlogues on demand. You could have it so that it can create a downloadable printable document for home printing, or be printed elsewhere and delivered
  • What is with people writing articles using the "former vs latter" phraseology (had to look that one up). It stinks. It's old. It's annoying.

    People seem to love it so much they purposely set up arrangements of arguments, just waiting for the splendid chance to use a "former vs latter"

    I'm not saying Jon K. uses it all the time, this is the first time I've noticed it in one of his articles. I generally like his artciles, though I usually don't read all the way through...I just saw it this time and it bothered me. The fact that he reverses the order of "New and Old" from their counterparts in the first half of the sentence doesn't help.

    Anyway, I feel better now.

    cheese
  • Well, I have to agree with you (and not about the ASCII art).

    This is all like claiming there's a middle movie media because the film industry thought at first they would up and vanish as TV seeped into more and more living rooms, but now there's so much cross-pollination going on between the two it's hard to see where one leaves off and the other begins (just look to see how many large Hollywood studios are left that are NOT owned by corporations with large holdings in other media like TV and print).

    Media is media, no matter the method of transmission.
    ----------------------------------- --------
  • by Raunchola ( 129755 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:26AM (#1240655)
    OK, so according to Jon Katz, we now have some kind of "middle media," where the old (print) media and the new (electronic) media have somehow merged together.

    Four words: been there, done that.

    This "middle media" you rant about has existed long before you started getting flamed on Slashdot Jon. Take a look at buying from TV. Home Shopping Network and QVC have been doing this "middle media" stuff for a while now. Rather than leaf through a bulky catalog for your favorite Hawaiian shirt, you can turn on the TV and see that shirt right there...they even have someone to walk around in it so you can see just how it looks! If you don't want to buy it from TV, you can always visit their store (QVC has one in Lancaster PA) and buy the same shirt you saw on TV. And yes, they do have catalogues to browse through. There you go, you have TV and the print media working together, an idea they've been doing since the mid 1980's.

    And NOW you're popping up telling us that there's some new "middle media" that we should all be bowing down to? What rock have you been living under?

    Ever wonder why a lot of people on Slashdot don't like you Jon? This article is just one reason. But feel free to enlighten me, as I'd be interested in what you have to say.
  • This is a quote from Newsweek on the arrival of the PS2: "It's historic, a mass-market appliance that fundamentally changes society in the way the printing press did," says Trip Hawkins, founder of Electronic Arts and CEO of 3DO. "This is a new canvas for humanity that takes us back to our nature." I think this is the kind of hype Katz is talking about. This kind of stuff is outrageous. The point is media (new or old) is just a tool to communicate ideas. Just because a tool is new doesn't mean it's better.
  • by Eruantalon ( 87981 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:27AM (#1240657) Homepage
    doesn't mean Katz is dumb. So Hypermedia has been around for years. Does that mean Katz can't call it Middle Media and write a piece to generate discussion on this topic? So it's obvious that books and catalogs and CDs are still selling. I know this - I still use and buy all of them. That doesn't mean I can't have these facts pointed out to me every once in a while and actually be forced to think about why they're still selling.

    Discussion and comments and arguments are what this site is about, in addition to news. So if it's not news (at least to some of us), why can't we just accept that and carry on with the discussion, comments and arguments?

    Go ahead, moderate this down as inflammatory or something. I'm just speaking my mind. Think about it, and it might make sense.

    Eruantalon
  • by jht ( 5006 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:29AM (#1240659) Homepage Journal
    Someone's obviously mastered ASCII painting, and has an agenda it seems to boot...

    As far as Jon's article, though, he has a good point. The e-companies are discovering that the key to success is to take the best of the old models and marry them to the new. Remember Amazon, and their intent to be a "virtual company", with no inventories? They gave up on that and have been burning cash to build warehouses and shipping facilities, allowing them to control the process better. The e-tailers who are now branching into catalogs have discovered that to rely on on-line only is to leave money on the table.

    The place for e-only commerce is in a small, specialty marketplace that is so focused as to make the Internet the only practical, affordable way to reach your target audience. Thinkgeek and Copyleft are two good examples of specialty businesses that probably couldn't succeed in a traditional catalog or retail world, because the overhead costs would be far too high to justify the limited audience. The classic examples like the hot sauce company that went online and had sales that took off (I forget the company, but this was some time ago) and the Copylefts of the world are the best ones for a purely e-commerce based approach.

    In reality, Amazon needs warehouses and customer service reps, the New York Times needs (and can make money from) online newsfeeds, and MicroWarehouse needs to have online ordering from their catalog (the closest postal equivalent to spam I've seen) in order to maximize their revenues. Smart companies like Ingram Micro make it easier for companies to do business in this hybrid world with fulfilment services and private-label direct shipping. Shippers like FedEx and UPS are more valuable too in this new economic model because in many cases they will be the only actual contact the customer has.

    In the end, the Internet is changing the way business is done, but the smart companies use the best of the old and combine it with the new to make more money. Money is a Good Thing, especially when you're making it...

    - -Josh Turiel
  • Alright. Normally I like to read Katz's articles. As a rule even if I don't agree they make me think a little. But this one falls under the category of Huh?. Did I miss something?

    Of course people like to hold paper in there hands and look at it. This is how most of us grew up getting information. Maybe the children being born today will be more used to a monitor and want there information that way. However, the vast majority of people that buy online right now want to be able to browse through there buying decision without being tied to the computer.

    Just because the dot.coms and others are using paper catalogs now doesn't mean that everything won't finally go all electronic. Even paper will have interactive abilities eventually. This is all just a transition period not some Middle Media thing.


  • ... And we still have scrolls for some functions
  • by Anonymous Coward
    It is this very attitude that has placed the Internet in its current position. Hypermedia has been a concept in computing since the 1960's, however, because most code hacks do little to no research into media presentation and user interface technologies, our current media implementations are 20 years behind what those 1960's visionaries foresaw. Technology for technologies sake is worthless. Understanding media and media trends is required to further development of the Internet.
  • I don't necessarily think that the increase in theater receipts and music sales can be directly attributed to advances in 'new' media and the internet. I think that a number of people are trying to create a causal relationship where one doesn't necessarily exist. I think that people are overlooking a booming economy and attempting to say, "Hey, despite traffic of mp3s on the internet, the record companies are still getting richer"

    I agree that there is a revolution going on, and people are becoming more and more attracted to digial media (whether it be mp3s, online newspapers, eBooks, etc.) but I don't think the time is yet upon us where these are going to supplant 'old' media.

    -----

  • The "new" media will find itself in a position similiar to every other field in which the "next best thing" has been introduced.

    First, people will praise all the brand new features, how it will change the entire world, and how the "old best thing" in that field will become very much obsolete.

    However, when you check back in a few months, you'll find that the product, service or company that survived wasn't the "next best thing" or the "old best thing", but the "combination of what made the old best thing the best, along with the features of the new best thing".

    This is true of media, operating systems, cars, toothbrushes, food and damn near everything else out there...

  • by spiralx ( 97066 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:33AM (#1240666)

    Today, you can still find new LPs, but not for ever album. Their market is mostly audiophiles who can hear and understand the difference. It is a limited market.

    I'm not sure about the situation in the US but over here in Europe there has been a huge revival in 12" records due to the huge popularity of dance music in Europe. Because it is designed to be beat mixed vinyl is the best media because it can be cued by hand as well as sped up or slowed down easily. Almost all albums and singles that fall into the dance catagory are released on 12" to cater for the thousands of DJs who buy vinyl every week. So in this market the popularity of vinyl is actually increasing.

  • Before anyone posts to admonish me, I'm using 'media' in the broadest most general sense, and not as a plural of 'medium'.
    --------------------------------------- ----
  • by ATKeiper ( 141486 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:37AM (#1240669) Homepage
    Why artificially divide the world between "new" and "old" media? That makes no sense. Why is television considered a "new" medium, when it is centuries younger than bound books?

    It seems to me to make much more sense to keep dividing and criticizing media along more traditional lines:

    • The speed of the medium. How quickly can you publish? Books are slow, the Web is lightning fast. This characteristic is important, because books permit more time for deliberation, while the Web's speed means things can be published without being thoughtful. (Present company excluded, of course...)

      The forced format of the medium. Books have usually been text, magazines now have lots of pictures, newspapers are moving to more graphical formats, television is tied to pictures, and the Web might soon bring everything at once. "Old" and "New" makes no sense here; everyone wants to convey information in a way that makes the most sense for the information itself and for those who consume it.

      The number of people who can be involved. Books are generally very prohibitive; they are usually written by just one person. Newspapers, magazines and TV programs are often the result of collaboration - but they do not allow serious, prolonged interaction. The Web permits dialogue, often with amazing results (like Slashdot, or the new online academic journals). But there are always exceptions: many Web sites are top-down (without dialogue) and many newspapers have ample letters sections (encouraging public dialogue).

    It just seems to me that calling some media old and some new is a particularly useless way of trying to dichotomize what is, in fact, a richly intricate and complex process.

    A. Keiper [mailto]
    The Center for the Study of Technology and Society [tecsoc.org]

  • And I'm not even going to go in to the phenomenon of toilet books - you know, those books full of easily digestible sections which sit in the bathroom for when you need a quick read

    What are you talking about, any book qualifies as a bathroom (toilet) book, it just depends on how much time you want to sit on the crapper.

    Incidentally, it's the mention of toilet books in an article about online companies producing catalogs strikes me as funny, since my mother told me that when she was little and they didn't have indoor plumbing (too rural), there was always a catalog in the outhouse for toilet reading and "after".

    -----

  • perhaps the reason sales in everything, especially in entertainment related fields, is up is because the economy is so strong. people just have more money to spend.
  • True, old vs new is way overdone. But people like to compare things, especially technology. Articles are always comparing the older tech vs the newer. Sure, they oversimplify everything, try to break down the categories through generalizing some aspects, further defining others, etc. This simplification and creation of merely two categories (old & new) from the wealth of technological products available in whatever area is being compared doesn't really work in real life, but it gives us some way of comparing the two. Change is about old vs new, although it's not as straightforward as everyone would like to make it out to be.

    So, to the point? People will always compare the old vs the new - some kind of "human nature", though I really hate that term. We like seeing what's changed for the better and what hasn't. It's a good way to figure out if we're moving forward or backward. Sure, it's overused, but it's still a valid form of comparison.

    Eruantalon
  • by Fleet Admiral Ackbar ( 57723 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:39AM (#1240673) Homepage
    It's time we all realize we've been hilariously duped. There is no Jon Katz. What there is, rather, is the Katzbot, a middling-length Python program that, given two phrases, constructs a meaningless story. Luckily I have my own copy, and here's some output:

    Given "Shetland ponies" and "acupunture", I got "Demystifying the Man-Animal Holistic Connection."

    Given "hot grits" and "Natalie Portman", I got "Cyberfood and E-Love in the Naboo System.",

    Given "school shootings" and "confused by Linux", I got "Greetings from the Hellmouth 5: When The Lack of Man Pages Causes the Info-Ignorant to go on a Geek Goth Gun Nerd Columbine Rampage."

    Clearly, this is a program whose time has come. Hey, Rob, open the Katzbot source!

  • The idea of "new" or "old" media may not hold too much longer, just Middle Media that combine elements of both, giving information-seekers many more options.

    It never held in the first place. This whole "new media vs. old media" thing was just a way for a bunch of young journalists to maintain their sense of self-importance while ignoring "old fashioned" notions such as fact-checking and objectivity. It was a typical rush to the new by people didn't really even understand the old. Now we see the shakeout, where everyone realizes that things weren't all that different after all.

  • Have you open-sourced the code that generates these trolls?
  • First, books and newsprint will NEVER be completely replaced. They're just too useful. (It's easy to xerox a recipe and tape it by the cooker. Try doing that with a monitor large enough to be visible.) They are also FAR, FAR cheaper to make and replace, anywhere in the world.

    Newspapers will NEVER be completely replaced by the TV (ever swatted a fly with a TV?), or by computers. It's been tried. Teletext services, such as Ceefax, were a complete, unmitigated disaster. Not because of the information, or the immediacy, but because they don't have the flexibility.

    THIS, I think, is the key. Anybody with a couple of dollars to their name can buy the materials needed to write a masterpiece on paper, sketch stunning works of art, or scribble to their heart's content. ANYWHERE. On the highest mountains, on the oceans, in the dryest deserts, ANYWHERE. For as long as they like. Yes, there's only so much ink, but it doesn't run out just by leaving the book open. Pens last for weeks or months, not hours. And books are FAR, FAR lighter, for small quantities of information.

    This leads me onto the second key point. Paper IS vastly superior to digital representations, for small volumes of information. Computers are GREAT for number-crunching, sorting, processing, et al, but give me a notepad and a pen for a shopping list or swapping a phone number.

    Third, Jon Katz is no scout, and probably never has been. Nor does he know many Travellers. What do these have in common? Secret writings, using sticks, stones, and gouged lines, designed not to be visible to those who don't know. What'll they do, if physical writing no longer exists? Leave a laptop at the crossroads, in the hope only the right person'll see it? Be real!

    Last, but not least, statistics has no real concept of "zero". Gaussian distributions, sure! But a Gaussian distribution has no mathematically defined limit for either tail. What does this mean? Simple. Computers will never replace the written, printed or carved word. They are too useful. What we'll see is the Gaussian distribution centre itself midway between the "old" forms and the "new" forms, but that's ALL it will be. The mid-section of the distribution. The rest will exist in each camp, according to the needs of the users.

  • IIRC, the onion has always been available in print, and then went on the web.

    Any midwest /.'ers want to vouch for this?

    George
  • of Bruce Sterling's right here [well.com].

    Saw a funny referance recently, Dave Barry? Steve Martin? Anyway, about how email, where messages are sent across great distances at the speed of light, has largely replaced smoke signals, where messages are send across great distances at the speed of light.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Personally, I think that this is a rather creative example. Notice the simulated oversampling around the edges to reduce graininess. Notice also for a moment the soft positioning of characters as to give the illusion of roundness. However, as an esteemed ASCII art critic, I would have used just a tiny bit of overlap between the letters to give it that more stylish, inner-city look that is so common amongst graffitti. Perhaps using more dense characters and have them fade to the colons as they transverse the horizontal on each letter. I believe the proprieter of this piece of art should be held in high regard for his or her effort to demonstrate the beauty of such an old computer medium. I say bidding for this work begins at US$1,000.

    SiliconDragon
  • I'm counting on books staying on paper for quite some time. I'm just under a year into ownership of an ailing, but full of potential used bookstore.

    I find that thet vast majority of fiction readers in my store resist any change from the basic mass market paperback format. Most will read a borrowed hardcover of a favorite author before the paperback comes out, but they'll buy a paperback as a reading copy later.

    The key to this, I think, is portability. Paperbacks are easily purchased, inexpensive, and can be carried in a spare pocket nearly anytime. Late last year, I would joke about my huge inventory of portable information storage and retrieval devices, all of which were guaranteed y2k compliant.

    People WANT portable, inexpensive and portable. They want the web in their home to be as accessible as a portable telephone, instead of a PC. Until the fiction market can beat the distribution medium of paperback books, I'll still be making money off paper.

    This makes me happy.

    paperbacks.homepage.com [homepage.com]
  • I don't mean to pimp a commercial webpage, but CDNow [cdnow.com] has been selling vinyl for a while now, and usually has a vinyl version for most new releases, which is also usually cheaper than the CD release. Tired of paying $20 for a CD, pay $10 for vinyl. Now, if I could just get an in-dash turntable for the car....

    -----

  • Having read this article and its predecessor, which proclaimed the death of newspapers [slashdot.org], I'm starting to wonder if JonKatz is trying TOO HARD to get a writing gig at Wired [wired.com] or The Industry Standard [thestandard.com].

    These articles sound like auditions for those outlets that we're getting the second-run of and not original, provocative content written for Slashdot.

  • The same thing is happening with print media. There are people who will take electronic over print text whenever they have the choice. All it would take to push me into that camp is the right technology for reading the text.

    My first thought was that this also would push me over the edge into e-text. However, with the Palm units out, have we seen any kind of move towards e-text for Palm? Yeah, there's the Kama Sutra or however it's spelled. Anything else? Have users of the Palm gone for more e-text than books? I can't figure out myself whether I'd prefer to have an e-text of a book on a handheld unit, or have a book. There's something about books that makes them slightly more real than an e-text, IMO. I suppose it will eventually come down to some people taking strong stands on one side or the other, while the majority of people prefer what's easiest.

    Eruantalon
  • At least until copyright law is changed, I will stay a firm supporter of traditional publishing for one reason and one reason only: E-publishing and what is known as "printing on demand" favor the publishing corporations more than the authors.

    Current copyright law says that if a book goes out of print, the author can reclaim the copyright, and take it to another publisher. With these newer forms of publishing, all a corporate publisher has to do is sell one copy occasionally -- printed on demand -- for the book to be legally be considered not "out of print" indefinitely.

    An example of this: right now there are seven books (psychology related texts -- which I won't name for the same reasons) that I would order in a second if they were in print. But would I rather keep them in print at a publisher who let them sit there for years, or wait another year or two for the author to regain control?

    I'll wait. And when the author regains that control, I hope they use electronic publishing and print on demand to keep control of their works until the copyright expires.

    (Somewhat related side note: I think that the Sonny Bono extensions to the period of time a copyright is issued for are wrong, BTW. And that corporations shouldn't be able to pass around (sell) their collection of copyrights like stocks unless the original contributors are somehow compensated, but that is even further off-topic).

  • OK, just to grab a few bits from the beginning (i.e. the 'topic paragraphs') of JonKatz's article:

    "For years, Old Media dismissed electronic competitors as frivolous and temporal. Then New Media appeared to be burying its predecessors for good. It appears both notions may have been wrong. The boundaries between new and old media are getting fuzzy, as a hybrid Middle Media emerges between the two."

    and...

    "Conventional wisdom says that the former will ultimately and completely replace the latter."

    Who comes up with this shit? For decades now, people have been saying that print media will never dissappear. Since day one of 'the new media,' nobody except for a very few extremists has been saying that the 'old media' will dissappear. The idea is, has always been, and will continue to be that as it develops, new media technologies will coexist and integrate with the old ones. Given that, this article is pretty stupid and alarmist, not to mention long.

    Oh wait--I forgot the source. Nevermind.

  • Fear of embracing change ? Wow, that sounds familliar.

    Kind of like the zealous group of people who refuse to go from console based operating systems from the 60's (or 70's?) and leap into todays pool of graphical user interfaces?

    As much as this sounds like flamebait, I'm asking a serious question. Are we Linux users trying to initiate change in todays markets and practices, or are we just clinging to old technology with few new drivers?

    I'd like to see some thoughts on this (although I'm sure I know what some will have to say).

    And BTW, someone wanna tell what's up with all the ASCII art?

  • I recall an essay by Isaac Asimov in which he wrote that the ideal medium (for storytelling, not everything) would be one that could be used to privately convey stories with technology easy to master, requiring only a minimum of power to run infinitely. This ideal medium should be personal, small enough to fit in a pocket, and intelligent enough to pick up right where a user left off without a great deal of nuisance. It would be easy to navigate and multiple people would be able to use it (perhaps not simultaneously) with a minimum of fuss.

    Then, he said, this ideal medium was already invented: the book.

    Of course he wrote this in the 70s, before he could envision personal computers and the power of manipulating data. Also, he was naturally biased (having written more books than any other American). Still, it's a good point: until a medium can overcome every advantage of books, they aren't likely to disappear.

    A. Keiper [mailto]
    The Center for the Study of Technology and Society [tecsoc.org]

  • I was quite interested by the observation that some internet companies are experimenting with paper catalogues

    While it may certainly be easier to find a specific product using an online catalogue, if you're just browsing to see if there is anything you might want to buy then a paper catalogue wins hands down. Lets face it, who wants to spend all their time going through God knows how many links on a website just to see what they've got.

    And then there's the majority of these websites which are designed really badly, again putting users off looking through them. Paper catalogues can't really go wrong in that respect (unless the company are complete idiots).

  • What are you talking about, any book qualifies as a bathroom (toilet) book, it just depends on how much time you want to sit on the crapper.

    Yes, but unless I've got the runs, I generally don't spend enough time there to read any useful part of, say "CORBA Distributed Objects Using UNIX" :)

  • And then there's the majority of these websites which are designed really badly,

    Yeah, I've found some very bad ones (www.maplins.co.uk is terrible unless you know exactly what you want)

    Paper catalogues can't really go wrong in that respect (unless the company are complete idiots).

    It would be quite easy. Just have a list of names of objects on page 1, pictures on other pages, and no way of cross referencing. This doesn't happen because everyone knows what a good magazine looks like. For some reason, not everybody looks to find out what succesful websites are like.
  • Why artificially divide the world between "new" and "old" media?

    Because it's the easiest way to divide things. Well, let me modify that statement: Because it's easiest to tinker with the qualifications of old and new to make all items obviously fit into one category or the other. It's the easiest to play around with so you can get the results you want, thus it's the most frequently used form of differenting items when comparing them. You could argue all day about categorizing things by price, effectiveness, format, user-base, ease-of-use; but categorizing things by age is always the easier to arrive at.

    Eruantalon
  • by Nafai7 ( 53671 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @05:59AM (#1240694)
    I *knew* we'd have people complaining about how this "isn't anything new", "been done before", etc. etc. blah blah blah.

    You guys need to remember, Katz comes from a media background. For those with a media background, what he writes about here is both significant and interesting. The whole world of mass media is being turned on it's head as a result of the internet.

    Now the problem here is, most of us (Linux) geeks have already seen the world of information being turned upside down. We read Katz articles and automatically respond, "Well, Duh, of course that is what is happening." because we saw it coming a long time ago.

    There are a lot of bozos in modern media that are just not realizing what we've known for a couple years already. The Old Media *is* dying off and being replaced by something much better.

    ---

    All that said, I'm beginning to see where many of the people here on /. don't like Katz because he doesn't write for geeks. He writes for large, non-technical *users* of technology, not the tech-savvy creators of technology. I almost get the impression all his "writting skills for geeks" were learned at Wired. By writting on /. he's reaching a large crowd, but his writting is a bit out of place here. Not only that, many of us find his writing condescending.

    However, I am just tired to death of all the whining that goes on. You may nicely preface your comment with "not Anti-Katz", but then you espouse nothing but "Anti-Katz" during your post.

    An appeal, all of those who want nothing more than to bitch about Katz, GO NOW to your /. preferences and turn him off. (Fat chance it'll happen, but I can wish, can't I?)

  • Yes, but unless I've got the runs, I generally don't spend enough time there to read any useful part of, say "CORBA Distributed Objects Using UNIX"

    Sounds like you need a more comfortable crapper. :)

    As an aside, my brother (who's a SysAdmin, go figure) used to keep a copy of O'Reilly's 'DNS and Bind' on top of the toilet for crapper reading.

    -----

  • >Please die. (Score:1, Insightful) by Anonymous >Coward on Monday February 28, @10:08AM EST (#14)

    >Please die Jon Katz.

    Wow.. I knew the hatred of Jon Katz was bad, but when moderators start marking these trolls up as insightful? Jesus..

  • Whoever the hell marked this thing Insightful should have moderator priveleges revoked...or the crack taken out of their pipe.
  • Fear of embracing change ? Wow, that sounds familliar.

    Kind of like the zealous group of people who refuse to go from console based operating systems from the 60's (or 70's?) and leap into todays pool of graphical user interfaces?

    Oh God, I hope this doesn't turn into another console vs. GUI flamewar. Anyway I'm still firmly in favour over paper books at the moment simply because of the usability factor. When the E-book becomes as convenient to use as a regular book, I'll switch over. It's got nothing to do with a fear of change.

    What would it take to do this? Well, the actual unit used for the display needs to be as convenient as paper, and not give you eye-strain after an hour. This is the real kicker IMHO at the moment. I also doubt an E-book will ever be able to give you that real new book smell either :)

  • I think a great deal of the lack of a total switch from paper to digital is sheer portability. The laptop computer is all well and good. I love them. However, they are still somewhat bulkier than a newspaper or magazine. They still attract attemtion as a 'unusual' item, are expensive, prone to theft, and require batteries, power supply's and carrying satchels. A newspaper is not only portable - but disposable. A novel - fits in my jacket pocket. A radio - change the batteries twice a month at the most. And, I believe, even as laptops and desktops merge, and become easier to use and carry, we will still retain our love of paper, just as we still go to the theatre, listen to the radio, and go outside and play baseball sometimes. There are other factors involved in entertainment and information than what hits our eyes, tickles our ears, and feeds our brains. (You know, I like that line. I think I shall quote it in a sig file today) -- We go to the movies for the group big-screen expierence. For the popcorn and the soda and the sticky floors. We read books for the feel of the paper under our fingers, for the sound of rustling pages, and for the smell of a new book (If you don't know what I mean, go to the bookstore, purchase a book, ANY book, open it stick your nose in, and take a deep breath. Its GREAT) Its not 'middle media' or 'old media' or 'new media'. Its what we DO as humans. We add to our choices of entertainment. Rock music didn't eliminate classical music. Movies didn't eliminate plays. TV didn't eliminate theatre. The internet won't eliminate books, newspaper or television either.
  • There is an interesting theory I heard that went like this. Online business is a lot like the introduction of catalogs. Again you can run a business with a minimum of overhead, without stores everywhere, etc. But the most successful catalog businesses combine the two. People like to order from a catalog. But they also like to be able to see the real thing, and they want to return items to a real store. Whether it started as a retail business (Eaton's) or as a catalog business (Victoria's Secret) the most successful catalog retailers combine catalogs with traditional retail outlets.

    I believe there is some reason to believe that the same thing is happening with online retailing. Barnes and Noble is more and more often beating Amazon. They are also beating Borders. Unless Amazon buys Borders, I think that we will eventually see Barnes and Noble dominate both the online and the retail markets - winning in each market because of the synergy with the other...

    Cheers,
    Ben
  • Damn good thought. Seriously, I don't know. I hope that we're pushing for change, and in most ways, I believe we are. We have enemies to bring down, changes to make in the way people think about software ownership & production, new higher standards for software compatibility and usefulness - we're part of the OSS movement, dammit. That says we've got something to prove and change.

    However, we do tend to like sticking with the old - the console, C (or even Fortran, Assembly, and who-knows-what), Unix time (which we should fix, at some point before 2038(?), no?). Not to say there's anything wrong with these - they worked in the past, they work now. They may not always work in the future, though. If they're still useful, use them; if there's something better, use that. I think we forget to move to the better once in a while, because we've been using the older that has always worked.

    Overall, I think we're doing OK as far as embracing new things and making changes in the tech world, but we get caught up sometimes. We're probably doing a pretty damn good job initiating change, and change is a very hard thing to initiate.

    Eruantalon
  • You're right, it's not going to happen. Because I don't *dislike* Katz. And it wasn't Anti-Katz; it was anti-that-article. Trust me, Katz is not the only writer for Slashdot who writes articles that I've taken issue with -- I'm not picking on him.

    Here's the way I look at it: If an author continually publishes material that I see as drivel, I will continually say "Wow, that's drivel". Then, if the publish a piece that I like, I will say "Hey, that wasn't drivel, that was good". Are you suggesting that I keep my mouth shut in the former case, but not the latter?

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • But as Garden.com's sweet-smelling catalogs show, the boundaries between old and new media are getting tougher to find. What is visible is a new and hybrid information structure, a new media species all its own.

    Katz, to finish with this tripe is sad. "New media and old media have formed this new species, blah, blah, blah," Jon spent too much time at Wired and thought he new what new media was. Now he starts to see signs of things changing and backtracks because they don't change fast enough. Wait 20 years Jon, media can't change in 5.

    All it can do in that time is slowly morph to some middle ground, and you think'll stop here. Less that 5% of the homes in this country have broadband. Excuse me for being a Net 1337i57, but if you don't have broadband, YOU ARE NOT ON THE NET and can't *really* participate in new media (it's too slow to be useful), just some bastard child that hints at the real possibilities. Until 50%+ is hooked up, you won't see sweeping changes. That will take 20+ years.

    Go climb a mountain or something Jon and think a bit longer about the difference between stopping halfway and calling it the top, and climbing upward until there's no mountain left.

    (posted here to avoid the me-too root posting tendancy.)

    --
  • Although I've bought books online they've always been books that I've already wanted before I went to the site. OTOH, practically whenever I go into a big bookshop there will be something on the shelf I've never heard of before that I like the look of, and I'll buy it. By doing this I've been introduced to some of my all-time favourite authors.

    Online catalogues remove the "browse" factor from shopping. They can be great if you know what it is you want, but if you're just looking out of curiosity then you're far better off with a paper catalogue, or even better, a shop.

  • "... And we still have scrolls for some functions " It's funny you should mention scrolls. I went down to Epcot where they had a sample swatch of of electronic paper. Flexible display. You roll it up like a scroll. It's funny, when it's turned off, it looks like tv "snow." joel
  • You're right that it's easy to categorize things by age - but that's the problem. Taking that easy way out is what led people in the first place to make the mistaken assumption that the "new" media would replace the "old."

    Instead, the situation is a lot more complicated, and interesting - and analyzing its complexities seems (to me) more useful than making quick, inaccurate judgments.

  • by Wah ( 30840 )
    Oh God, I hope this doesn't turn into another console vs. GUI flamewar.

    what's the point, my GUI has a button that opens a console. And my console recognizes cryptic stuff like startx to make a GUI, best of both worlds. No war necessary, we're already at peace (except for the zealots, which are never at peace)

    I like reading online. I do it for multiple hours a day, and it doesn't bother me any more than reading a regular book does after multiple hours. I'm still waiting for that solar powered collapsing foldable PDA(B), though :)

    --
  • So some guy says "If [e-tailers] want to grow as a sales channel, catalogs can be a vital part of their business."


    That may be so, but it's much easier to go the other way (go from a thriving catalog business into dotcom land). Why? Many existing catalog companies already have a solid logistics network in place. Look at Lands End or direct companies like Dell who have been in the logistics business a lot longer than they have been in the online business. Setting up your database and slapping up a storefront is one of the easier parts of this process. The real work is done in warehousing, inventory management, shipping, and order fulfillment. In the point-click-get it tomorrow world, those who master logistics will become industry leaders. Oh, I know that's not as sexy as saying it's some new media paradigm, but it's powering the companies that are getting it done.


    I hope a lot of these dotcoms aren't getting into the catalog business just because they know people like to read things on dead trees. That's kind of the equivalent of a company putting up a brochureware website because they know everyone's getting online. Running a catalog mail-order business can be very similar top running a good online business but only if you set it up right with a solid structure of order fulfillment behind it. Many catalog companies get that; they've had decades to streamline their distribution, and they can make the move online rather easily. New media? Middle media? Hardly. More like just one more new channel for a proven existing way.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    He is just speaking from his own experiences sitting on the toliet. Its seems Katz likes to come up with "Facts" without providing supporting statistics or data to back them up. I work in an office full of engineers with full-time T1 internet access. Yet I see allot of newspapers every morning on people's desks.
  • The onion did start as a print paper out of Madison, WI, and is still distributed in print form.

    I work at a B. Dalton Bookseller in our local mall, and we carry the print version every week.
  • by Wah ( 30840 )
    bits is bits is bits, and by any other name would still be on or off.

    --
  • tough to see smoke from a fire in Norway here is the U.S though, eh? :)

    --
  • "So Hypermedia has been around for years. Does that mean Katz can't call it Middle Media and write a piece to generate discussion on this topic?"

    Katz can call it "A Sooper Dooper New Media Teknology (tm)" for all I care. But that's not the point. My gripe with the article is that he thinks that this whole "middle media" thing is new and exciting, when in reality it's already been in practice.

    Furthermore, I still don't see this "middle media" anywhere. So what if a few dot coms are printing catalogues? That doesn't mean that the "middle media" is upon us. Hell, Sears has been printing catalogues since the 1880's, and they have their Wishbook [wishbook.com] catalog on the web...so where's the Katz commentary on that?
  • The radical new development of mass-market &quotbooks&quot, made possible by this new-fangled thing invented by Guttenburg, was anticipated to bring about the long-awaited death of theatre as the public's primary source of entertainment. Much to everyone's amazement, it appears that theatre, and other live performances, are in fact not dying at all. The pundits are stunned.

    &quotPerhaps one day,&quot says one, &quotthere will be this thing called convergence, maybe not with books, but some sort of projected images telling a story for a mass audience, with traditional theatre being performed at the same time mirroring the story, and raucous audience participation both enhancing and commenting on the same story. It could be called &quotRocky Horror&quot.&quot

  • You know what smell I am talking about... There is that musty smell you get when you open that old book your mother gave you before she died, the new glue smell you get when you open a book for the first time or the flowery perfume smell you get when looking at the Victoria's Secret catalogue (I know ALL of you know this one.. :)) That smell is the first thing I think of when I think about reading and it is the reason that books will never become entirely electronic.
  • Just because the dot.coms and others are using paper catalogs now doesn't mean that everything won't finally go all electronic. Even paper will have interactive abilities eventually. This is all just a transition period not some Middle Media thing.

    I think that was Jon's argument. The reason he used the term middle media is because he's trying to demonstrate that there really isn't a clear divide between new media and old media, as many other pundits suggest. That it is a transition, as you state, and a transformation, exactly because people like to still read paper.

  • Jon Katz is just the kind of shortsighted pundit that would have been proclaiming a couple of years ago that the internet would be the place where everything is done in the future. That's like saying that the Dremel will be the only tool someone uses forever. It doesn't make any sense. While being useful for many things I do throughout the day, the net is not a panacea. It's a large part of my life, but doesn't permeate it. So poor people and people living in the third world don't have to worry. They can live happy, healthy, productive lives and never be connected to the internet. Thanks, Jon Katz. I couldn't have figured that out without your help.
  • I don't think that the electronic media will ever replace the printed word... at least in the US. There is a strong lobby in D.C. to stop this from happening. Next to Tobacco, Firearms, Insurance, and Pharmaceuticals; the Paper Fastener Lobby (the manufacturers of paper clips and staples) is one of the most powerful and influential organizations.
  • And NOW you're popping up telling us that there's some new "middle media" that we should all be bowing down to? What rock have you been living under?

    Jon's article isn't saying we should be "bowing down to" this middle media. On the contrary, his text cleary indicates he's not certain where it's going, but is asking questions about the implications and the direction things *could* move in. If you read carefully, you'll see he uses terms like, "And the form of media might vary in terms of content as well" or "might always remain popular to consumers on paper"

    At no point did I see a statement that said anything about the certainty of middle media succeeding, or that we should be completely submissive and accepting of it (bowing down to it, as you claim). On the contrary, he points out that the electronic media dictates a greater openess and consumer participation in the content and success of the material in question.

  • Actually I was just referring to the semantics of the article. "Former vs Latter." Not old vs new.

    I have no problems with somebody doing a comparison, old vs new or whatever...

    I re-read my post and I think maybe you might have misunderstood my intentions for the post.

    cheese
  • "Jon's article isn't saying we should be 'bowing down to' this middle media."

    One word: Sarcasm.
  • Yes, old *news media* is dead, and good riddance.

    Huh? You mean like newspapers? I have fast internet access at home, and reasonably fast access at work, and I still buy newspapers and magazines. Then there's the 75% or so of the population that doesn't have reliable internet access.

    Here's a prediction for you: The internet will kill traditional news media in the same way that television killed books and VCRs killed movie theaters.

  • by dsplat ( 73054 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @07:07AM (#1240731)
    Kind of like the zealous group of people who refuse to go from console based operating systems from the 60's (or 70's?) and leap into todays pool of graphical user interfaces?

    As much as this sounds like flamebait, I'm asking a serious question. Are we Linux users trying to initiate change in todays markets and practices, or are we just clinging to old technology with few new drivers?


    Certainly, this discussion will generate some heat, but I wouldn't call it flamebait. I don't believe that CLIs and GUIs are mutually exclusive. It is certainly possible to have systems without one or the other, but it isn't necessary. The tension between the proponents of each side come from a firm insistence that their own preferrence not be abandoned. So let's examine the merits of each and consider the implications for the print vs. electronic media issue. I think that the way I am going to twist this analogy will be counterintuitive at first, but it may shed some light.

    CLIs are not inherently more flexible than GUIs. There is no reason that they necessarily must have a richer set of options than a GUI can provide. However, that is often the case. Don't flame me if your favorite GUI is easily as flexible as my favorite CLI. I not only concede that it is possible, but that it has been done. The biggest hurdle in presenting a flexible GUI is to not sacrifice the benefits that GUIs provide. The biggest one is that GUIs allow users to leverage the power of recognition over the burden of remembering.

    Okay, with that out of the way, what are the benefits of a CLI interface? I'm going to talk about the Unix shell functionality as one of th best examples of a truly rich set. Primarily, a CLI puts a rich set of functionality into a form simple, flexible commands and a mechanism for combining them. The power of the Unix/Linux shell model is the ability to combine commands in useful ways, and also to script those combinations. Once scripted, they essentially become powerful new commands. I haven't seen a GUI that privdes this mechanism to script repeated operations and build up complex combinations with conditional logic. Is there one?

    Now, how does this related to print versus electronic media. I would say that the scripting capability is related to the direct accessibility of electronic texts to be manipulated in various forms. E-text can be cut and pasted for quoting. I personally find it easier to translate because I can search through it for similar phrases that I have translated elsewhere. It can be transmitted faster and more flexibly than a printed book.

    Printed formats are analogous to a GUI. They are designed around a set of intuitive operations. It is obvious how to determine your position in the text, how to move forward and backward, etc. They are easy to look at and read. They hide the details of how graphics were included.

    Yes, I turned the analogy on its head and equated the new, electronic text, with the old, command line interfaces, and vice versa (print and GUIs). Does this possibly hint at who I think falls most naturally on each side of the two debates? I think that those of us who are used to taking control of our computers through a CLI, who are so used to data being a live thing and building filters to put it in whatever form we want, are also likely to want our text that way. I could be wrong, but if I have erred, I suspect it is in not including some people who use GUIs as flexibly. I think the reasons for choosing electronic over printed text are still present in the analogy.
  • I don't understand why Jon Katz is always given a forum to speak, as if his words hold some weight or importance. It seems he is often more interested in exploring the limitations (real or imagined) of technology and all things net, rather than the possibilities. Is this the best our digital tribe can come up with? Are there no real writers out there to make us dream, rather than downplay the revolutionary force of technology?
  • Well, he's not a technical writer - he's written for magazines/newspapers that weren't too technologically driven or centered. He knows (or seems to know - correct me if I'm wrong) much more about how to write articles that people will read and have an opinion on, and how to generate discussions based on his articles, than he does about technology and technological advancements. At least, that's what he writes about - issues rather than technology itself.

    So, my point was that yes, this "middle media" has been around for years, Katz seems to think it's new, and he seems somewhat interested in this topic, given the tone of his article. It doesn't really matter, IMO, that this media has been around for years - it's the discussion of said media that matters. Personally, I think that this "middle media" is more of a transitional period where both the new and old are used to a similar extent. What will happen in the future - whether the new will replace the old - I don't know, but it's articles like these that make people think about it. That was the point I was trying to make - not argue that this "middle media" is a new and exciting thing.

    Eruantalon
  • how email, where messages are sent across great distances at the speed of light, has largely replaced smoke signals, where messages are send across great distances at the speed of light.

    Or semaphores, though the network layer latencies of Semanet and Smoke Ring are pretty atrocious.. Bridging is really difficult and the routing algorithms are poorly implemented and not very well maintained..


    Your Working Boy,
  • Current copyright law says that if a book goes out of print, the author can reclaim the copyright, and take it to another publisher. With these newer forms of publishing, all a corporate publisher has to do is sell one copy occasionally -- printed on demand -- for the book to be legally be considered not "out of print" indefinitely.


    Yes, this is a thorny issue, and I hadn't thought about that implication. To a certain extent the authors who are really in demand are likely to be able to exert some control. New authors still face the issue that they are dealing with large corporations who don't need them, individually, as much as the authors need publishers. Electronic publishing may actually change this. It lowers the cost of publishing a work. The monetary compensation to the author may turn out lower is some cases, but if it can get a new author's work into the hands of readers when he would not otherwise have had that chance, it is probably worth it. There are already a number of cases of people whose work, self-published on the web, has shown up in print.

    (Somewhat related side note: I think that the Sonny Bono extensions to the period of time a copyright is issued for are wrong, BTW. And that corporations shouldn't be able to pass around (sell) their collection of copyrights like stocks unless the original contributors are somehow compensated, but that is even further off-topic).


    This will certainly increase the time it takes for classic works to become available online. And there will be a period for most of them, when they aren't in print in any meaningful sense, but are not in the public domain. Regrettably, that has the effect of reducing the exposure of many worthwhile older works without increasing the revenue to anyone. If they aren't getting sold, nobody makes money.
  • As if anyone would use the Katzbot! I tried it and received undesirable results:

    Given "Spam" and "Internet", I got "This week on From Martha's Kitchen, learn to can tomatoes and to prepare kielbasa, Japanese risotto, and grits with tomato and shrimp."

  • by Anonymous Coward
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  • No "thing" can be all "things" to all people.

    Sometimes I wonder where the obsesive thought that everything new must replace and destroy what caame before it comes from. Mostly I don't bother.

    Every medium has value. And the metavalues of that medium are different for everyone. Did the printing press cause hand copied books and hyroglyphics to become worthless? No, they greatly increased in value because people realized the value creation through the sheer effort that was necessary to create a hand written book.

    Oil paints have not invalidated cave art or watercolors or vice versa.

    What is gained through the net is a medium where it is incredibly simple to post information that is accessible to millions and billions of people. Inexpensive, cheap and easy.

    There exists an added credibility in print media, justified or not. People recognize the tremendous cost for the creation of print media, paid reporters, informants, ink, and paper.

    Most people here recognize the high cost of a highly visible and popular web site like slashdot, paid reporters and all. Most people do not see these costs.

    Simply put there are differing uses for differing mediums, they all have differing intrinsic values, but the difference of these values means that no one medium is inherently better for every situation.

    /. has drawn this fact out many times through many discussions and nothing has changed. Wow, daily newpapers circulations are declining. Local weeklys, usually free, are growing. People are amassing increasing large quantities of information from increasingly diverse vendors. 2000 is also proving to be so far the most heavily participated political season of this generation.

    Please don't cheapen our new or our old sources of information by declaring that one must destroy or dominate the other. Celibrate the fact that people today have such an amazing amount of access to such a diverse quantity of information, for this is one of the true cornerstones of democracy.

    chris pugrud
    chris@pugrud.net
    --- Not anonymous, not a coward.

  • Well, I'm still not exactly sure how to read your original post, but it makes more sense after reading this comment. So you are arguing with the semantics of using Former vs Latter? How different is this from Old vs New? Yes, I'm serious - I don't see a distinction. Different words, same idea, same comparison, right? So, with this post in mind, let me restate:

    Old vs New is overused and overrated. It makes sense, it's easy to do, but one can't differentiate between old and new as easily as the statisticians would have us think.

    Semantics are given too much weight and used all too frequently. Catch-phrases are always thrown around in the media (and community at large) to get noticed and listened to. People place more weight (wrongly, I think) on semantics and statistics and language than they do on data.

    Is this anything like what you were saying? I'm still rather lost on this semantics idea, and I'm not really sure what you're trying to get across, but I think I agree with you.

    Eruantalon
  • Instead, the situation is a lot more complicated, and interesting - and analyzing its complexities seems (to me) more useful than making quick, inaccurate judgments.

    Which was my point. Yes, categorizing by age is easy, but it's usually not the best way to do it. That, and by playing with the definitions of your categories, you can play with the results a little, and thereby bias your statistics. It's not good comparison/categorizing/statistics, but it's use very frequently.

    Eruantalon
  • i wonder why this continues to escape the grasp of the so-called 'experts'. we like our catalogues and our books because they give us something tangable; something that connects us to the outside world. i'm sure many of you have been on the internet as long as i have (~8 years (some longer i'm sure)). those who have been on that long have come to the realisation that the internet as a whole is a waste of time. it used to be about browsing for inordinate amounts of time, now it's to go on get what we need and get off. the 'trend experts' continue to only see the newbies for whom the novelty of fingertip, ask if you want it information has not worn off.

    jonkatz says that we continue to go to the movies. but, he says this as if it were a divine revelation. of course we go to the movies, we are a sociable spieces. it's always more fun to see a movie with others than by ones self. this is the reason i choose to stay in the theatre industry. i go to the theatre to be moved, to be entertained. there is something to be said for having the actors only a few meters away (as well as sitting with an audience). it is an experience you can't get at your computer and i enjoy bringing that experience to others as a theatrical sound designer. it is continued to be said that print media will go the way of the dinosaur, but that's also what they said about theatre over the last hundered years. things that involve the human experience don't disappear, they evolve.

    people understand the convience of the internet but have a deep desire to remain with people. check out the personals if you don't believe me. it just seems obvious to me that we would wish to have something to tie us to a society that otherwise is intangable through ones and zeros. dvds maybe cool but the imax experience is better. mp3s sound nice but nothing beats attending a live concert. it's about time people opened their eyes and discovered that technology isn't here to replace the human experience, just to enhance it.

    rev. eric
  • So you're agreeing with Katz, then. You make the statement that you "don't necessarily think that the increase in theater receipts and music sales can be directly attributed to advances in 'new' media and the internet". That's Katz's point. He states:

    Although online book sales are growing on sites like Fatbrain, Amazon and BN.com, so are the sales of books in stores. The technological absolutism invoked by the rise of the Net - everything will go digital - is not coming to pass.

    In other words, others are claiming that the Internet is impacting sales in older distribution channels, but he's pointing out that that's not correct.

  • by dougman ( 908 ) on Monday February 28, 2000 @07:53AM (#1240745)
    I'm really surprised that noonne has yet made this observation (perhaps someone did, if so I apologise, I did skim through the responses fairly quickly)

    The REAL new "middle media" is right here. Really.

    Slashdot is the PERFECT example of "middle media".

    Everyone seems to agree that "old media" , (and I think we're getting to hung up on defining "old media" by the FORM of physical media used to communicate the message, rather than the ORGANIZATIONAL structure used to generate the information dissemenated by that media) is not going away anytime soon. Fair enough. I would agree with that.

    Problem as I see it is, with all of the vast amounts of "old media" out there and all the thousands of "new media" outlets emerging, it's simply WAY too much information for the average person who consumes information as a small subset of their normal lives to take in.

    So, as I see it, in my humble opinion, the idea of a "middle media" is very much valid, and I'm convinced will emerge as a titan on not only the 'net but all forms of communication. But I define the "middle media" as a collection of somewhat specialized collators of all media, like Slashdot is for technology/Linux/techonology-politics.

    A weblog of sorts, with the added benefit of INSTANT feedback in the form of truly open comments, taking what is otherwise a LONG, painful process of debating and agonizing amoung the media outlets over every story and making it a VERY fast, (in Slashdot's case a few hours) intense discussion, and then we all move on to the next story.

    I'm convinced also that this model will begin to appear in print and television as well. I can TOTALLY see a "Slashdot TV" program with Taco and Hemos (or two scantily clad babes playing the roles of Taco and Hemos) burning through the best-of-the Slashdot news for the day/week, taking phone calls and adding their own pithy wit to the mix. Hell, if I lived in Michigan, I'd have already put my 10 years experience in TV to work and got them to do it by now, but I'm sure someone will soon, and it will work.

    Just my 2 cents, of course.

  • When was the last time you used an online catalog and it even came close to compating what was available in print I can only think of about 3.
  • Which was, I belive, Katz's point as well.
  • In Star Trek: Voyager [startrek.com], the crew of Voyager uses technology extensively. Ask the replicator for the food you want, without having to print off a copy of the recipe to keep next to the cooker. Want to know something? Pull it up on a display or ask the computer directly. Old media, such as TV shows, and music are played in crew's quarters by the computer from databases on the ship.

    But interestingly enough, in several episodes, crewmembers (such as Janeway in "Fairhaven"), have books replicated to read, instead of reading the texts on the computer screen.

    So yes, although media delivery may change in many profound or not-so-profound ways, I would argue that books will be around for quite some time to come. But will technology change the way we receive at least some content? Absolutely.


  • ...minutes?

    All hypotheses welcome.

    ------------------------------------------
    "The Internet interprets censorship
    as damage, and routes around it."

  • Once scripted, they essentially become powerful new commands. I haven't seen a GUI that privdes this mechanism to script repeated operations and build up complex combinations with conditional logic. Is there one?

    MacOS comes to mind. Most applications can speak AppleScript, which allows you to create reasonably powerful system scripts. I personally find AppleScript's syntax to be annoying because it tries to be "English-like" and I don't think in English when I write programs. In general, I have not been able to leverage AS in the same way I have Perl. However, it does meet your criterion of a scriptable GUI.

  • Hey, that was a good catch - well done. Honestly though, how long did you look for that?

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • Network Working Group Jason Pees-On-Trees Wagner Request for Comments: 32768 Univ of Arizona Category: Informational/Experimental 1 April 2001 A Standard For The Transmission Of IP Datagrams By Means Of Chemical Reactions In Oxygenated Hydrocarbons Status of this Memo This memo describes an experimental method for the encapsulation of IP datagrams in bursts of residue from the chemical combustion of oxygenated hydrocarbons. This specification is primarily useful in Western Area Networks. This is an experimental, not recommended standard. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. Overview and Rational Oxygenated hydrocarbons provide a means of low-bandwidth, insecure, and short-distance service. The connection topology does provide easy access to multicast capabilities. Unlike most methods of trans- mission, this form allows multiple hosts to transmit and recieve simultaneously. This is because of the 3-dimensional nature of the transmission medium, in direct contrast to the 1-dimensional medium implemented in IEEE802.3. Communication is, however, limited to line- of-sight distance, although repeaters may be implemented to offset this limitation. Quality of service is not guaranteed, due to factors such as current wind speed, low-flying aircraft, and precipitation. Service is generally based upon a hub topology, although on a macro- connection scale, a bus topology may be implemented. Frame Format The IP datagram is generally printed on paper, in order to act as an output buffer for the network interface. It should be printed in binary format. The distance between the network interface and the output buffer should be maximized, to reduce the probability of the buffer being dropped into the firewall. The datagram should be read in from the input buffer and outputted by means of a large cloth fanned over an open flame. The bandwidth is variable, depending upon ambient atmospheric conditions, the previous usage of the interface, and the size of the interface. The MTU can increase or decrease, depending mostly upon the network interface. Upon receipt, the datagram should be written into an input buffer which can be then optically scanned into an electronically transmittable form. Discussion The major disadvantage to this transmission standard is its one-way nature. This problem may be circumvented by utilizing a transmitter and reciever at each end. Multiple network interfaces can be multiplexed in order to gain bandwidth and reduce round-trip latency. Wagner [Page 1] RFC 32768 IP Datagrams in Oxygenated Hydrocarbons 1 April 2001 All repeaters in this medium automatically gain bi-directional transmission capability. While broadcasting is not specified, storms can cause data loss, even to the point of making a connection impossible. This RFC specifies a connection-less protocol only, and requires a connectionned protocol such as TCP to operate effectively. Logging maybe used to increase the throughput of the network interface. Security Considerations Security is a serious problem in this medium. Intercepts of the raw datagrams is easily achieved and virtually undetecable. Encryption is highly recommended, especially when transmitting crucial data. Due to the nature of the medium, firewalls are a necessity, but less crucial during packet storms. To avoid leaving an audit trail, the dispersion of said firewall, both the input and output buffers, and all logs is a requirement. Author's Address Jason Pees-On-Trees Wagner University of Arizona Tiny Admin Closet Division 23 Boondocks Way Sierra Vista, AZ 85635
  • I think that those of us who are used to taking control of our computers through a CLI, who are so used to data being a live thing and building filters to put it in whatever form we want, are also likely to want our text that way.

    I used to clip articles from the local newspaper. After a short stint on the desk, they would end up in a box with all of the other "filed" articles, never to be heard from or thought of again. Now when I find an interesting article in the paper I look for it on-line and save it to file, where it is much more likely to find future use. I still like the experience of reading the "paper" newspaper, but it is clearly far more useful to save its content in a text file.

  • Well, we can both agree on Katz's writing style... and the article itself was probably out of place here on slashdot, but it is interesting because it is finally a statement by someone that doesn't run along the lines of, "we are entering a new era where Old Media is dead and the New will rise up blahblahblah". It is a very common-sense statement from Katz explaining why the New Media becomes a supplement and intergrates itself into Old Media, in the same way that TV did not eliminate radio or newspapers.

    This is a welcome statement from those who think they are part of the "Digerati" and probably reflects a maturing of Katz's views on the topic.

    -Dean

  • I'm traveling and just browsed the posts below. Strange..I know this isn't a flame, but this isn't deep or complex. The point is pretty clear and being much discussed around media offices, ad agencies and in mags like American demographics..All old media isn't vanishing as rapidly as people thought just a few years ago, and old and new media are linking up synergistically, and creating different kinds of media outlets. It's not a complicated point, it is new, and I'm by no means the lst person to notice it or write about. It's also interesting many of the comments below are attacking me for making this point, and than making it along with me. Strange. There is a mindlessness to these flames that many people comment on and ask me about. Flames don't bug me much (I'm not running for mayor), but I'm not sure I know how to answer.
  • I think I spent just the right time at Wired, frankly, and what has broadband got to do with this? Millions of people (tens of millions) shop on the Net and get news without broadband. As to the mountain, can't wait.
  • I agree.

    While it is a great article and an interesting idea it has to be asked "Is Slashdot the correct forum for it"

    This would be a perfect article for salon, yahoo or any other large audience of non techno savy netusers. However posting on Slashot is like explaining the basics of physics to Stephen Hawking. Most of us are aware of the revolution in media.

    I think it is time Katz realised the audience he has and started to pitch his articles to the appropriate location. The advantage of the net is that there will always be somewhere that an article would be appropriate for.

    Mandos
    /s
  • ...frankly, and what has broadband got to do with this?

    You have surfed the Net on a 28k dialup right? And you've also surfed on a T1, I would assume. The use of the Net changes drastically depending on how you connect. My point is that the Net and "new media" won't take over until 50%+ of the population gets to use the Net like it should be.

    Two quick concrete examples for you.

    Newspapers vs. /.
    Radio vs. Napster(or streaming music sites)

    Neither /. or napster is particularly useful without a fat pipe. (Lynx browsers aside, I'm talking mass market)

    Streaming MP3s, which I listen to constantly, is not possible without broadband. Go visit www.shoutcast.com or www.live365.com and see how much "New" media you can access over a dial-up connection. Or Flash sites, large video files, heck even the abundance of game demos, or how about online FPSes, video conferencing, etc. Bandwidth is more than just a piece of the puzzle, it's the table on which the puzzle sits.

    Shopping on the Net and getting news is "old". Surely you don't think using a telephone line to order products is revolutionary.

    I used the mountain comment as a hook, looks like it worked ;-) Saying that we are in some type of "middle media" now, is halfway accurate. Saying that this is where we are going to stay, is, IMHO, shortsighted. I like most of your stuff Jon, but this article didn't really say much other than "Things are changing", which we already know.

    --
  • You're sort of a cult of personality around here now. You could write the most enlightening piece imaginable, and people would still say, "Damn that was long-winded" and "Die Katz, Die".

    I don't have anything against you personally; I don't know you at all. Sometimes your pieces are good, and sometimes they aren't. I rather think this one was shot wide, but maybe I am missing the point.

    Someone else made a comment to the effect that this piece would be more appropriate on a less tech-related site, like salon or yahoo. I'm not sure how close that is to the truth, but there may be something there. Many of your pieces do tend to target the lowest common denominator when it comes to technology. While I recognize some of the points you made on this subject in your intereview, I think you may -- in very simple terms -- be boring some of the readers.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • i think that, essencially, there is no middle media, rather a dual medium media which gives everyone the choice of their prefered media and also payment for it (advertising online vs the advertising and payment combo of printed media).

    seeing as most media has gone through either a computer as some point - it's as easy to select 'export to html' as it is to select 'print'.

    also, there is the practicallity of it. sure, if i'm going to work, i'm not going to read the news on the train on my laptop but then, if i'm at work/home, i'm not going to go out and buy a newspaper if i can read it online without getting out of my chair.

    i guess the final thing is the audience. if i'm buying a computer from say dabs.co.uk, i'm not going to go through the catalogue when there's much more up-to-date information online. but also, i doubt i'd prefer an email of computer arts magazine's articles than a hi-res glossy print.

    as for cinema and music - i get the feeling that people are a lot more aware of quality of the medium than previously.

    and then there's the fact that the windows font renderer doesn't anti-alias fonts at the mostly used sizes.

    this is just my situation.

FORTRAN is not a flower but a weed -- it is hardy, occasionally blooms, and grows in every computer. -- A.J. Perlis

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